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The $25k car is going extinct?

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Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#831

Post by enragedcacti »

bumby wrote: post #589
vel0city wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on the drive trains being compared, the hybrid drivetrain may be overall mechanically simpler than an ICE. A series hybrid can easily have fewer moving parts, fewer friction spots, less reliance on fluid motion through little channels, etc. And then you're also keeping the moving parts more in their happy zone of temperature, speed, and load instead of needing them to operate in as wide of conditions.

Could you elaborate further? A hybrid, by definition, combines an ICE and electric drivetrain. While I understand it could be designed for a more efficient range of operation* how could it negate the downsides of an ICE-only design if it requires an ICE? (Are we conflating EV and hybrid?) * This also means each segment is less globally efficient, meaning the system is less efficient if it has to limp along if one par…

The design of a powersplit hybrid (like a Prius) allows for consolidation and elimination of a number of common failure items on a traditional ICE vehicle.

- pure ICE needs mechanical gears or a belt-style CVT. a HV power source and 2 electric motors enable the use of a dead simple planetary gear set to change the ratio between ICE and the wheels.

- ICE needs a starter and an alternator. psd hybrids use the existing electric motors and a dc-dc converter to do those jobs

- belt powered components (e.g. A/C, power steering) are replaced by more reliable electric versions powered by the high voltage battery

- ICE needs small displacement, high compression, turbo'd engines to meet power and efficiency targets. Hybrids can get away with wheezy but efficient and reliable low-compression engines because the electric motors make performance acceptable

- ICE cars need to run their engine anytime they are moving. Hybrids will have 20+% lower runtime and that runtime will be spent at optimal RPMs and with minimal stress as bursts in acceleration are assisted by the electric motor.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#832

Post by itsoktocry »

polski-g wrote: post #800
__s wrote: post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rearview cameras are effective: https://www.iihs.org/research-areas/bibliography/ref/2130 I agree with having simpler SKUs, but rearview camera is not where to start

Funny story about this. There was a woman who backed over her own kid in the driveway. For some reason, she was not imprisoned for vehicular manslaughter. So instead of not being in prison, she spent the next half decade lobbying congress to make backup cameras mandatory. And it happened. So now everyone's car costs $3k more. It would have been cheaper to put her imprison than impose a $3k cost per every car sold in…

>So now everyone's car costs $3k more.

$3000 for a backup camera, okay.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#833

Post by lovich »

dudeinhawaii wrote: post #751
tlogan wrote: post #577

This is a great example of how factually incorrect narratives - so long as they align with a preferred agenda (which is that things are not affordable any more) - it gets upvoted. Reality check: - In 2025, there are 12 new car models available under $25,000 - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) So the premise that “cars used to be much more affordable” is not true. This…

While we're being data driven - the narrative isn't far off from reality. Looking at inflation in isolation is also misleading. Plainly, prices have risen faster than pay. Avg. new-car price: $23,017 in 2005 -> $47,465 in 2024 (+32% after inflation). Median household income: $46,242 in 2005 -> $80,610 in 2023 (+12% after inflation).

We’ve also got 0% down 7-10 year car loans now when they used to be much shorter terms.

The car market is highly manipulated between financing, the literal laws protecting dealership monopolies, insurance, etc.

No simple analysis on a handful of metrics will show the full picture

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#834

Post by itsoktocry »

BanterTrouble wrote: post #597
bumby wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those “useless” sensors like tire pressure or backup camera are required by law. Even if you get a bare bones hatchback (manual transmission, manual locks, manual windows etc.) they’ll be forced to include those.

The tyre pressure sensor you can make an argument to be required by law as uneven tyre pressures can negatively effect handling. However the backup camera being required by law is absolutely ridiculous. You can just either use the mirrors or turn your head.

Low tire pressure affects:

   - Gas mileage (pollution)
   - Tire wear (pollution)
   - Handling (safety)
It's wins all the way around.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#835

Post by csomar »

bunderbunder wrote: post #773
csomar wrote: post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) You'll need to provide hard evidence for this. I was pretty young in 2005 but $15.000 would get you a decent car (though not a pickup). That being said, it is possible we have more models now under 25.000 but what $15/25k used to buy you (segment wise) has downgraded.

Not OP, but this seems like a decent source for the claim. It lists 12 cars under $25K MSRP: https://www.motortrend.com/features/cheapest-new-cars That said, we picked up one of the cars on this list for well under $15,000 in 2010. (And it's still going strong! Never needed a major repair.) Which doesn't really mean anything, just throwing out yet another anecdote to highlight that nobody's presented any information…

> Not OP, but this seems like a decent source for the claim. It lists 12 cars under $25K MSRP: https://www.motortrend.com/features/cheapest-new-cars

I need a source for the year 2005 not 2025. Of course, it is easier to have a source for 2025.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#836

Post by mattmaroon »

NickC25 wrote: post #827
mattmaroon wrote: post #750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it’s a bad thing for countries whose economies include manufacturing and aren’t China, sure. The obvious threat is that they will do what they did with manufacturing capacity and just kill the industry in other places. Do we want to get to a point where every industry is completely run by whichever country is willing to throw the most money at it?

>Do we want to get to a point where every industry is completely run by whichever country is willing to throw the most money at it? The whole point of specialization of industry is that yes , we absolutely should be OK with that. If that's where China wants to specialize and deploy resources, let them.

Yeah, that’s the sort of thinking that gutted in the middle class in the western world over the last 40 years. And it also presupposes that once they succeed, they won’t then stop it, let prices increase, and move onto the next one until they own it all.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#837

Post by lossolo »

mattmaroon wrote: post #750
NickC25 wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's a bad thing? A country's government sees an opportunity to invest into a promising new technology that could reap tremendous economic benefits. Such benefits include new jobs, new income, the ability to increase social/political capital worldwide, and help usher in a world that is that much less reliant on oil. That's what countries in the first world are supposed to do .

Well, it’s a bad thing for countries whose economies include manufacturing and aren’t China, sure. The obvious threat is that they will do what they did with manufacturing capacity and just kill the industry in other places. Do we want to get to a point where every industry is completely run by whichever country is willing to throw the most money at it?

How is that different from funding US companies with VC money fueled by a propped-up market, driven by printing $2 trillion in debt a year and benefiting from being the world's reserve currency (USD recycling on the stock market etc)? The end game seems to be the same.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#838

Post by burnerthrow008 »

csomar wrote: post #627
tlogan wrote: post #577

This is a great example of how factually incorrect narratives - so long as they align with a preferred agenda (which is that things are not affordable any more) - it gets upvoted. Reality check: - In 2025, there are 12 new car models available under $25,000 - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) So the premise that “cars used to be much more affordable” is not true. This…

> - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) You'll need to provide hard evidence for this. I was pretty young in 2005 but $15.000 would get you a decent car (though not a pickup). That being said, it is possible we have more models now under 25.000 but what $15/25k used to buy you (segment wise) has downgraded.

Your memory is different to mine, and different to Motor Trend's, as well: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/toyota/corolla/2005

$15k would buy you a base-trim 2005 Corolla with an automatic or one level up with a manual.

In 2025, you can buy the LE or SE trim Corolla for under $25k, either of which are vastly better cars than the 2005 in any dimension you wish to measure. Safety, technology, comfort, performance. All improved.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#839

Post by BanterTrouble »

itsoktocry wrote: post #834
BanterTrouble wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tyre pressure sensor you can make an argument to be required by law as uneven tyre pressures can negatively effect handling. However the backup camera being required by law is absolutely ridiculous. You can just either use the mirrors or turn your head.

Low tire pressure affects: - Gas mileage (pollution) - Tire wear (pollution) - Handling (safety) It's wins all the way around.

You still don't need a sensor built into the vehicle to check it. A tyre pressure gauge you can buy on amazon for £5.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#840

Post by ethagnawl »

amelius wrote: post #368
rmnwski wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the more SUVs are driven, the less safe people feel (and arguably are), accelerating the need to buy an SUV for safety reasons.

On the other hand, if you kill someone in a traffic accident, you feel shit the rest of your life.

You're giving people way too much credit here. People and, more specifically, Americans (who I know) will do some incredible feats of mental gymnastics to avoid taking personal responsibility -- despite what their bumper stickers and favorite politicians say. It's always someone else's fault and they're always (somehow ...) the victim.
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