FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities • Hacker News Board

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#831

Post by vimax » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 10:31 PM UTC

godelski wrote: post #774

lolinder wrote: post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claim is that the judge, upon finding out that they were there to make an arrest, deliberately led the man out a back door which would under almost no circumstances be available to his use (the jury door), allowing him to bypass the officers attempting to make the arrest. If true, that's pretty clearly a deliberate attempt to obstruct their efforts. The only question is whether obstructing ICE is classified as th…

> The only question is whether obstructing ICE is classified as the legal offense of obstruction There's other questions tbh. I don't know the answers, but I think it is critical to point out. An important one is "does ICE have the authority to operate in the location they were operating in?" If the answer is no, then Dugan's actions cannot be interpreted as interfering with ICE's official operations. You cannot inte…

It's worth adding the director of the FBI posted publicly showing a clear politically motivated bias in an ongoing case. So outside the immediate facts of the case there are questions around presumption of innocence, due process, and a fair trial, as well as prosecutorial misconduct.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#832

Post by daseiner1 » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 10:32 PM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #792

hayst4ck wrote: post #781

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the constitutional crisis. You are taking ICE's/the administration's perspective and assuming it is cogent which leads you to conclusion that doesn't support justice and instead supports the end of constitutional rule in the US. The administration is in open violation of supreme court rulings and the law. They have repeatedly shown contempt for the constitution. They have repeatedly assumed their own supremac…

> You are taking ICE's/the administration's perspective and assuming it is cogent which leads you to conclusion that doesn't support justice and instead supports the end of constitutional rule in the US. No I'm not. I'm taking the facts as they're presented by the AP (which is famously not sympathetic to this administration) and saying that nothing in the facts that I'm seeing here in this specific case serves as evi…

> we have no reason to believe at this time that she didn't!

this is not the standard of guilt and i think you know that

i also think you know that this is merely the latest incident in an extended, obvious campaign to override the judiciary.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#833

Post by crote » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 10:33 PM UTC

godelski wrote: post #637

throwawayqqq11 wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is full of flaws. After due process via courts, deportation is justified. So you need a big "if" before all of that. ICE is not the police. There should be no (broad) if-clause to grant rights. Unknown citizenship is not something you need to check for constantly, as you hinted.

> After due process via courts, deportation is justified. Yes? >> if (person.citizenStatus == illegal && person.citizenStatus in police.knowledge()) { deport(person, police) After due process citizen status is in police knowledge, right? So they're illegal, ICE knows it, and our flow chart says... deport. Which condition do you believe is not satisfied? Do you believe the status of the person is not "illegal"? If so,…

You're assuming that `police.knowledge` is sourced from an infallible oracle, and that the code is being executed by a fully trustworthy party. This isn't the case in practice.

You need a giant try-catch around the whole thing, with the person being targeted being able to trigger an exception and force a re-evaluation at any point. That's what the basic human rights are for - placing those deep inside a nested if-statement is going to mean your code will horribly crash and burn, without there being any way to recover gracefully.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#834

Post by lolinder » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 10:36 PM UTC

daseiner1 wrote: post #832

lolinder wrote: post #792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are taking ICE's/the administration's perspective and assuming it is cogent which leads you to conclusion that doesn't support justice and instead supports the end of constitutional rule in the US. No I'm not. I'm taking the facts as they're presented by the AP (which is famously not sympathetic to this administration) and saying that nothing in the facts that I'm seeing here in this specific case serves as evi…

> we have no reason to believe at this time that she didn't! this is not the standard of guilt and i think you know that i also think you know that this is merely the latest incident in an extended, obvious campaign to override the judiciary.

It's not about the standard of guilt in court, it's about political capital and effective rhetoric.

There are so many cases where the Trump administration has flagrantly violated rule of law. Why would we waste time fighting them in the court of public opinion on a case where things currently appear to be open and shut in the other direction?

When those on the fence see us getting up in arms about something where to all appearances the "victim" actually did break the law and is being given due process, we lose credibility. If we instead save our breath for the many many cases that actually have compelling facts, it's harder for them to tune us out.

In ux design this is called alert fatigue, and it matters in politics too.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#835

Post by jshen » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 10:37 PM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #778

ivape wrote: post #767

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government has to prove intent here, which as some have noted is difficult, but if the facts as recounted in the news stories are all true it doesn't seem that it would be overwhelmingly difficult to prove that she intentionally took action (2) to thwart an arrest that she knew was imminent She is brave. I suspect we will look back on this one day if it goes that far. Even if you are staunch anti-immigration advo…

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What's the lie? Who is lying?

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#836

Post by frognumber » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 10:39 PM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #792

hayst4ck wrote: post #781

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the constitutional crisis. You are taking ICE's/the administration's perspective and assuming it is cogent which leads you to conclusion that doesn't support justice and instead supports the end of constitutional rule in the US. The administration is in open violation of supreme court rulings and the law. They have repeatedly shown contempt for the constitution. They have repeatedly assumed their own supremac…

> You are taking ICE's/the administration's perspective and assuming it is cogent which leads you to conclusion that doesn't support justice and instead supports the end of constitutional rule in the US. No I'm not. I'm taking the facts as they're presented by the AP (which is famously not sympathetic to this administration) and saying that nothing in the facts that I'm seeing here in this specific case serves as evi…

The truth is somewhere in the middle.

There was a similar case in Massachusetts many years back. It never went to trial, and legal analysis could go both ways. The bargain struct was it would go into secretive judicial oversight channels.

There is a strong case to be made for obstruction of justice, and an equally strong case to be made about her making an error in her professional capacity as a judge and a government employee (which grants a level of immunity). Police officers, judges, soldiers, etc. make mistakes, but they generally don't go to jail for them because (even corruption aside) everyone makes mistakes. In some jobs, mistakes can and do have severe consequences up to and including people dying. If that led to prison, no one sane would take those jobs.

In any sane universe, it'd be fair to say she screwed up, and then the FBI also screwed up arresting her. I think the FBI screwed up more, since their mistake was premeditated, whereas she was put on the spot.

I do agree with your fundamental point of fatigue. This is not something anyone has a moral high ground to hang their flag on without looking bad.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#837

Post by daseiner1 » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 10:39 PM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #834

daseiner1 wrote: post #832

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we have no reason to believe at this time that she didn't! this is not the standard of guilt and i think you know that i also think you know that this is merely the latest incident in an extended, obvious campaign to override the judiciary.

It's not about the standard of guilt in court, it's about political capital and effective rhetoric. There are so many cases where the Trump administration has flagrantly violated rule of law. Why would we waste time fighting them in the court of public opinion on a case where things currently appear to be open and shut in the other direction? When those on the fence see us getting up in arms about something where to…

> When those on the fence see us getting up in arms about something where to all appearances the "victim" actually did break the law and is being given due process, we lose credibility. If we instead save our breath for the many many cases that actually have compelling facts, it's harder for them to tune us out.

those cases are the least important to the defense of due process rights. but i'll concede that you're likely correct at the level of the broader populace given that our civic education is an embarrassment and has been for decades.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#838

Post by Jensson » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 10:41 PM UTC

hayst4ck wrote: post #815

Jensson wrote: post #796

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then don't fight these battles where they are in the right, fight them where they are in the wrong. Taking this fight here just gives all the advantage to Trump and his regime, fight them where it is easy to win.

Salami slicing is the first page of the present day authoritarian play book. Here's an excerpt from They Thought They Were Free , a book about the mindset of ordinary Germans experiencing the rise of the Nazi Government: Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes,…

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Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#839

Post by dataflow » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 10:44 PM UTC

ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #784

Gabriel54 wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the warrant? They did not demand the judge tell them anything. They knew he was there and were waiting outside the courtroom to arrest him. The judge confronted them and was visibly upset. She directed the agents elsewhere and then immediately told Ruiz and his counsel to exit via a private hallway. The attorney prosecuting the case against Ruiz and his (alleged) victims were present in the court and con…

"elsewhere" here means "to the correct location they should have gone in the first place, to give notice of, and gain approval for, their actions" it's a pretty important detail

> it's a pretty important detail

It doesn't seem like it matters here. Per 18 USC §1071:

Whoever harbors or conceals any person for whose arrest a warrant or process has been issued under the provisions of any law of the United States, so as to prevent his discovery and arrest, after notice or knowledge of the fact that a warrant or process has been issued for the apprehension of such person, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned.

Unless you're arguing that the facts are misrepresented, or that the law is somehow unconstitutional, this seems pretty slam-dunk, no? The judge seems to have deliberately escorted the defendant to the jury room for the purpose of letting them hide/escape arrest. That's all there seems to be to it.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/04/25/us/judgedugan...

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#840

Post by sanderjd » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 10:46 PM UTC

zzrrt wrote: post #659

sanderjd wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thesis is that immigrants have no constitutional rights because they aren't citizens, or the stronger form, that they are invaders and thus enemy combatants. The Supreme Court is going to have to clarify the existence or non-existence of constitutional rights for people living here unlawfully. And then the populace is going to have to make sure that the president doesn't conclude that he can ignore that ruling if…

> The Supreme Court is going to have to clarify the existence or non-existence of constitutional rights for people living here unlawfully. I'm not a lawyer, but... they already have for decades or centuries, and not in the direction that MAGA wants. > “Yes, without question,” said Cristina Rodriguez, a professor at Yale Law School. “Most of the provisions of the Constitution apply on the basis of personhood and juris…

Yeah I don't doubt any of this myself. But the Court is still going to have to rule on it. Which isn't so weird. The Court has to reiterate rulings sometimes.

The thing that is unusual is that I have some genuine uncertainty around whether the current Justices will try to give the executive more leeway here than they should, as "compliance in advance" out of concern about their rulings being ignored by this administration.