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'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

theguardian.com

831–840 of 870 posts

Re: 'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

#831

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the entire philosophy behind all of the apps run by DHH/Basecamp. The web should be the default and native apps should only be used for software that just isn’t possible through the web (yet).

The problem is that users much prefer native apps. The idiomatic UI, the use of OS specific capabilities (even if the same result could be done without), the appearance of better performance because the app launches before a network connection is made. We can opine all we want about how things should work, but the ground truth is a good native app has higher user satisfaction, more engagement, whatever metric you wan…

Speaking as a user, I do prefer native apps that actually do the things that you have mentioned (i.e. use idiomatic UI for the platform, integrate with its features etc).

The problem is that the vast majority of the apps that we're talking about here - the ones that replace websites - are little more than a web app repackaged in the app store. So it still has all the downsides of a web app UX-wise, while also working around any privacy settings that would have applied in the browser.

Re: 'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

#832
post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To quote something from a favorite fiction-series, where someone has traveled to a relatively backwards planet: > "Poor?" said Cordelia, bewildered. "No electricity? How can it be on the comm network?" > "It's not, of course," answered Vorkosigan. > "Then how can anybody get their schooling?" > "They don't." > Cordelia stared. "I don't understand. How do they get their jobs?" > "A few escape to the Service. The rest…

Thanks, a bit of nostalgy from my youth. I read it in Russian, in 200x, though

It took me a short while to understand that "200x" probably means a year between [2000,2010), and not that you listened to it at a speed of 20000%

Re: 'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

#833

Earlier quoted context omitted.

part of that is old perceptions that have long went away. And the other part is the huge push against PWAs, especially from Apple. Web-based app development has come so far but Apple is showing off its control freak tendencies as usual to make it not seem so. Hearing the story above about infinite loading to hide crashes really boils my blood and shows that it's simply a matter of care these days (and not hardware/ba…

I’m not sure what Apple’s huge push “against” PWAs is, other than just declining to support them. Are they doing anything active to lobby against PWAs?

For that matter, what does "declining to support" even mean? I use PWAs a fair bit on macOS, and as I recall they are available on iOS as well.

Re: 'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

#834
post #780

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but if everyone or a plurality of people did that because they disagreed with the business practices? An individual may not be able to do much in all circumstances, but a lot of people might.

Yes, boycotts can be effective but they work by not buying things rather than pretending theft is noble. Most people have a moral objection to that.

if snow and ice close the lot is nature "thieving" from the lot owner?

Re: 'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

#835
It's not just those without smartphones who are penalized. It's those without Digital Restrictions Management (DRM) and spying imposed by Apple or Google on their devices.

I run GrapheneOS on an older Pixel. It does everything I need it to do: alarms, offline maps and navigation, end-to-end encrypted communications, podcasts, audiobooks, music, photos, weather, and even phone calls. All without any DRM or spying.

Now let's talk about the downsides in this article: shopping discounts, parking, entertainment, fast food, and banking.

Shopping discounts: The deal is that they get to track me and advertise to me, and they cut some percentage off a purchase here and there. No deal. I've discovered so many great products by moving away from big retail shops that engage in this kind of activity. I mostly shop at Trader Joe's, which has no coupon/discount/loyalty nonsense. For the occasional trip to another supermarket, I simply key in -867-5309. Works every time.

Parking: I ride my bicycle or take public transportation almost everywhere, so parking is a moot point for me. But for the rare occasion when I drive to a place where I have to pay for parking, most everything accepts a credit card. If it doesn't, most everything else has a website that I can go to in Vanadium or Waterfox. It's actually very rare that I find I actually have no choice but to download and install a DRM'd app in order to park somewhere. In fact I don't recall that ever actually happening to me. Not to say that's not a possibility in the future.

Entertainment: I despise large crowds, and almost everything that's exclusively done through Ticketmaster et al. is of absolutely no interest to me. If I'm not sitting down in a cozy venue within 10-15 or so feet from the performers, I'm just not interested.

Fast food: I don't eat fast food. Discounted Big Macs isn't my idea of a good time.

Banking: My bank's web site works fine on Waterfox. But if I'm going to be managing my money I'd much prefer to do it on my computer. If I want a reasonable return on my deposits I simply park most of my cash in a money market ETF. It's plenty convenient and is simply not a big issue for me.

I'll add a few more.

Rideshare: I find traditional taxis are everywhere I've recently visited, tend to be driven by more interesting people, and they accept cash, no problem. I've had plenty of bad experiences with rideshares and have never had a bad experience since switching to traditional taxis. Knock on wood.

Audiobooks: I get ODM files from my local library. The audio files you download via ODM aren't DRM'd.

Ebooks: My offline Kobi reader works great. Kindles can be cracked with WinterBreak. Again, the library. DeDRM is your friend.

Email: Fastmail app from apkcure.com.

Chat: Signal.

Airlines: Check in on Waterfox, take a screenshot of the ticket/QR code. If that doesn't work, check in at the airport and get a printed boarding pass.

Re: 'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

#836

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, accessibility and disability are large and complex subjects with a huge gradient of issues/conditions/situations. One of the banks I use requires an app since it's an online only bank. I pay lower rates as a result. Does this bar some people from using that bank? Yes. But as long as other banks exist that shouldn't be a problem. Would it make sense to require that bank to offer branches, phone access et…

Take a look again at rwmj's comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43137896 . * I think it's reasonable to requiring an app bad. * Maybe not a "tyranny", we'd probably want to reserve that for the government doing it, but not good news. You replied "Why?" Since you and rwmj agree that calling is tyranny is too much, it comes across like the "Why?" refers to the objection to requiring an app. When you follow…

When I said "Do you complain when the bank requires you to sign something with a pen?" I didn't have a problem with complaining. I had a problem with the hyperbole and the fact that this nonsense is on HN. People always complain about everything which is what we do. I'd expect more from something on the front page here. This was a you at HN audience in general.

> So, as long as one bank exists somewhere in the US?

Not an American but that's generally a tradeoff yes. My main bank closed the branch next to me. They are not app only, that's what they do. That's why we have regulators (sorry Americans) to make sure a level of service exists.

But regulators shouldn't "break the market". I use two banks. One does have branches and I use it for my business accounts. Another is app only and far cheaper. A regulators job is to make sure both have room to exist and compete on a level playing field.

Will that mean branches closing? Maybe. The alternative is more cost to the shareholders/customers.

> Would you say that so long as one bank has handicap access, the other banks should save money and provide lower interest rates by not being handicap accessible? I hope not.

That's a straw man argument. Even the apps are required to have accessibility and handicap access is protected by law in practically every western country.

I live in a small country. We have 5 banks. If all are forced to have branches everywhere a 6th bank will never form since the cost/time to build up a bank becomes prohibitive. Thus no competition. Indeed we hadn't had a new bank for 50 years or so. Until we allowed an app only bank which gives much better rates.

This isn't different in the states, competition is difficult when the big banks can crash you and the public is afraid to step into a smaller bank. That means you need to build accessible branches to service a community that will never set foot there. You're effectively saying: "make the barrier of entry so high that no competition can happen".

> The cantons of Geneva and Neuchâtel in Switzerland voted for the fundamental right to live offline. What's wrong with having that everywhere?

That's fair. You 100% have the "right" to live offline. I agree with that and I'm very much against a cashless society.

But this isn't that. What you're asking is for people who are interested in living online to give up potential benefits of the modern age. That's a very different thing from "able". Progress always meant some things went away or became harder to do as a result, this is no different.

> We have Braille on elevator buttons even though not having Braille on elevator buttons is not discriminatory in the vast majority of cases.

Because having Braille on the elevator or having the elevator say the floor we're on doesn't impact the rest of the population. E.g. when I go to the hospital the elevator waits forever in every floor. That makes sense, disabled and elderly need time to reach the open door.

In my building it is much faster, don't the disabled and elderly deserve this in my building too?

Well, they do. But the tenants in my building don't want to wait every time the elevator stops and have a cascading effect on all the floors due to that delay. We can provide localized solutions by holding the door and helping. It's a tradeoff.

> Because the vast majority of people don't need Braille. > More people don't have smartphones than need Braille.

Sure. I'm 100% for the "right" to avoid smartphones and apps. I think every public service and infrastructure should be accessible without them.

However, demanding that it would be in the same price and with the same current level of convenience is problematic as it would impact everyone. I think the analogy you gave is great. Braille on elevators should stay forever when we can. They should also speak, accessibility here is free and doesn't impact people who don't need it. Slowing the elevators for the elderly (of which there are quite a lot) is problematic and probably not what most of us want.

Re: 'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

#837

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asynchronous operations can be retried until the network returns without blocking the UI.

Not when they require user validation like making sure a photo updated correctly If you drive away from the delivery before that photo is uploaded, then you risk not having the proof that you delivered the package successfully That is actually worse for the driver than having to wait for the upload so they can retry immediately

The proof is still on the phone. The photo doesn’t magically vanish because the driver moved on while the network was disconnected.

Re: 'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

#838

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many places in apps just wait for no reason. Let's take a hypothetical situation: Suppose you're doing gig delivery. You're delivering to two customers in the same neighborhood on the same run. You drop the first order, take your photo of the drop, and the app spins. It's waiting for the photo to be delivered before it moves on. You can't get directions to the next customer until the app moves along. Why can't it…

I'm proficient in optimizing these UX flaws, and have been unable to land a full time job in two years, even after hundreds of applications. Nobody cares about quality anymore.

Don’t I know it …

Re: 'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

#839
I have a friend in hong kong who is an international teacher. Wanted to take a sick day but needed to see a doctor to get a note. then needed an app. but the app is only available for hong kong app store users. She basically could not take a sick day from work.

Re: 'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

#840

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Truth be told, the tolls in Austria are a total mess.

There is a country wide sticker/digital vignette you can get for different periods of time and a handful of tunnels that cost extra money that you can pay in cash or by card at the time you drive through one of those. How is that a mess? Of course a system like Germany where you don't have any tolls is even easier but compared to France or Italy where you constantly have to pull over for toll stops and end up paying…

You can’t jump the toll gates in Italy, so even if I am a completely clueless tourist it is easy to comply with the laws.

What gets me is that I bought the Vignette but didn’t know there was an additional toll and a 130€ fine seems pretty large for the infraction severity. I would be more OK if the police pulled me over and gave me the ticket, but the cameras just scanned my license plate and sent me an automated fine. If the system was trying to enforce compliance instead of punishing me they could have just sent me a bill for the toll I didn’t pay (which was a few €).

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