Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza • Hacker News Board

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#831

Post by weatherlite » Thu, Jan 16, 2025, 2:15 PM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #507

robertoandred wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going to pretend that Jews haven’t lived there for thousands and thousands of years, before the Arabs arrived?

In 1872, less than 4% of Palestine was Jewish. It was 17% in 1931. 33% in 1948 when Israel was formed. The vast vast majority of Jews in Israel now are Ashkenazi. Ashkenazis are from Khazaria and converted to Judaism between 740 and 920 AD. Even from this population, there is a bottleneck around 600 to 800 years ago where the population was down to 350 individuals [1]. By and large very very few Jews in Palestine/Isr…

> In 1872, less than 4% of Palestine was Jewish. It was 17% in 1931. 33% in 1948 when Israel was formed.

Where's the issue ? I thought you Woke people wanted to see more diversity and empowerment of minority groups in the world

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#832

Post by weatherlite » Thu, Jan 16, 2025, 2:17 PM UTC

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #379

boringg wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is a good development. Everything in this part of the world is on a rinse snd repeat cycle ever since the Assyrians and the Babylonians - it hasn't changed much except maybe its actually a little more humane then it was in the past (which says something). Sorry for the cynical take but this just does a temporary stop.

I like how even in this thread, you have many people - almost certainly very few of whom have no real stake in the fight - bitterly arguing about who is right and wrong (turning it into a fight about US politics as a bonus). Human nature and tribalism really is a terrible thing sometimes. I agree with you, although I certainly hope you and I are wrong. It would be nice to see people let go of past injustices on both…

> I like how even in this thread, you have many people - almost certainly very few of whom have no real stake in the fight - bitterly arguing about who is right and wrong

Yep, this is what it's about - a morals swinging contest to see who is purer. I mean, I would have assumed if there was in fact a genocide taking place in Gaza everyone would be happy there's at least a ceasefire but no - no one gives a s**, at least not on this thread. It's about shitting over Israel to feel morally superior more than anything else.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#833

Post by bjourne » Thu, Jan 16, 2025, 2:18 PM UTC

cnlevy wrote: post #769

bjourne wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Hamas + PIJ had a fighting force of ~45 000 at the beginning of the war. They chose to fight it in a heavily urbanized area AMONG CIVILIANS. What human outcome would you expect out of the situation ?

Estimates of Hamas membership originating from Israeli state sources should be taken with a grain of salt.

I expect the Israeli regime's blood thirst to be counter-balanced by the desire to free hostages, but apparently not. I don't think bombing hospitals and refugee camps serve any military purpose.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#834

Post by asheri » Thu, Jan 16, 2025, 2:21 PM UTC

xg15 wrote: post #21

Everything else aside, this is an absolutely fantastic development and I really hope the ceasefire holds and all hostages are released. I just fear this will cause western media and politicians to and declare the crisis to be over (after it had began on Oct. 7, of course absolutely out of the blue and without any context...) and go back to pretending everything is back to normal. Never mind that Gaza is still in ruin…

Israel does not have a fundamentalist, authoritarian government! There are some fundamentalist and far-right parties in the current coalition but they have little power to push their own policies except to threaten to bolt the coalition. For all the talk of those 2-3 ministers to who belong to these more extreme parties to eg legitimise new settlements, repopulate gaza, they don't have enough power to actually pass such laws and none of these ministers none of whom hold the top 8 roles in government.

The most religious/fundementalist of the the parties UTJ believes in land for peace and have said so many times over the years (but like the majority of the Israeli public, they wont mention it, let alone push for it, during wartime so as not to reward terrorism) and was fully behind all the ceasefire proposals in the past 18 months.

And it's certainly not authoritarian. Israel has full powers of protest, free speech, and in fact it's generally the press that have the strongest voice not the government.

And "that is actively at work undermining democratic structures" is also wrong. They are trying to reform Israel's supreme court system which many legal scholars agree badly needs reform as the justices are largely self-selected yet have the power to override legislation without referring to existing law (the so-called reasonableness test which no other country has).

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#835

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Jan 16, 2025, 2:22 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #803

xg15 wrote: post #21

Everything else aside, this is an absolutely fantastic development and I really hope the ceasefire holds and all hostages are released. I just fear this will cause western media and politicians to and declare the crisis to be over (after it had began on Oct. 7, of course absolutely out of the blue and without any context...) and go back to pretending everything is back to normal. Never mind that Gaza is still in ruin…

This is a one-sided description of the conflict. I am empathetic to Israel, because they also do not have a lot options. Israel, as it it currently constituted (based on 1967 borders) is not a viable state if the West Bank is a hostile entity with a standing army, and funded to a similar extent as Hezbollah. The West Bank bulges into Israel and effectively cuts the country in half and places all strategic targets wit…

> Israel, as it it currently constituted (based on 1967 borders) is not a viable state if the West Bank is a hostile entity with a standing army, and funded to a similar extent as Hezbollah. The West Bank bulges into Israel and effectively cuts the country in half and places all strategic targets within shelling distance.

This is exactly the same argument that Russia has been using to annex territories such as Crimea; "it's strategically important for us" isn't really sufficient justification for mass murder, and - on a purely geographic point - talking about the West Bank doesn't justify anything to do with Gaza, which is geographically separate.

And why the 1967 borders rather than the 1948 ones?

> Iran funnels hundreds of millions of dollars in arms to militia groups.

This is the side that's not really been raised enough in this whole discussion. If Israel's war is with Iran, why is that war not being carried out in Iran? Does this have something to do with the fact that Iran is 1000km away from having a land border with either Israel or Palestine?

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#836

Post by boringg » Thu, Jan 16, 2025, 2:23 PM UTC

wl wrote: post #461

boringg wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is a good development. Everything in this part of the world is on a rinse snd repeat cycle ever since the Assyrians and the Babylonians - it hasn't changed much except maybe its actually a little more humane then it was in the past (which says something). Sorry for the cynical take but this just does a temporary stop.

The conflicts with the Assyrians, Babylonians, and Hittites came down to geopolitical factors that don't exist anymore. Mostly, the Levant separated the empires of Mesopotamia and Anatolia from Egypt. The numerous battles that happened at Meggido occurred because that was a chokepoint of the Way of Horus, the principal land trade route from Egypt specifically and Africa generally to the rest of the world. Besides tra…

The Sunni-Shia conflict falls pretty close to the same line between the Babylonians (south) and Assyrians (north).

The Assyrians were constantly attacked by proxies helped out by Egypt (Elamites, Medes, Babylon).

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#837

Post by nashashmi » Thu, Jan 16, 2025, 2:24 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #803

xg15 wrote: post #21

Everything else aside, this is an absolutely fantastic development and I really hope the ceasefire holds and all hostages are released. I just fear this will cause western media and politicians to and declare the crisis to be over (after it had began on Oct. 7, of course absolutely out of the blue and without any context...) and go back to pretending everything is back to normal. Never mind that Gaza is still in ruin…

This is a one-sided description of the conflict. I am empathetic to Israel, because they also do not have a lot options. Israel, as it it currently constituted (based on 1967 borders) is not a viable state if the West Bank is a hostile entity with a standing army, and funded to a similar extent as Hezbollah. The West Bank bulges into Israel and effectively cuts the country in half and places all strategic targets wit…

> The West Bank bulges into Israel and effectively cuts the country in half and places all strategic targets within shelling distance.

That’s why the peace before 1967 was so important. But Israel ended it and was left with a mess that now all young people are drafted into service.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#838

Post by mutatio » Thu, Jan 16, 2025, 2:25 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #788

mutatio wrote: post #775

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's a cultural arms race. What kind of nation do you think is capable of manifesting in those local conditions, a progressive social democracy like Sweden?

Europe had a thousand plus years of war under its belt and two World Wars very recently as that progressive democracy developed.

That aligns with my point, rather than make it moot.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#839

Post by rayiner » Thu, Jan 16, 2025, 2:25 PM UTC

asheri wrote: post #834

xg15 wrote: post #21

Everything else aside, this is an absolutely fantastic development and I really hope the ceasefire holds and all hostages are released. I just fear this will cause western media and politicians to and declare the crisis to be over (after it had began on Oct. 7, of course absolutely out of the blue and without any context...) and go back to pretending everything is back to normal. Never mind that Gaza is still in ruin…

Israel does not have a fundamentalist, authoritarian government! There are some fundamentalist and far-right parties in the current coalition but they have little power to push their own policies except to threaten to bolt the coalition. For all the talk of those 2-3 ministers to who belong to these more extreme parties to eg legitimise new settlements, repopulate gaza, they don't have enough power to actually pass s…

[flagged]

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#840

Post by rPlayer6554 » Thu, Jan 16, 2025, 2:26 PM UTC

xg15 wrote: post #21

Everything else aside, this is an absolutely fantastic development and I really hope the ceasefire holds and all hostages are released. I just fear this will cause western media and politicians to and declare the crisis to be over (after it had began on Oct. 7, of course absolutely out of the blue and without any context...) and go back to pretending everything is back to normal. Never mind that Gaza is still in ruin…

> I also found Trump's signalling in the whole issue odd. His base and his cabinet is full of the most hard-line pro-israel figures imaginable, but then he goes forward and quotes Jeffrey Sachs and ostensibly pressures Netanyahu into accepting the ceasefire.

Because you weren't listening to Trump. Throughout all of his campaigns he's been pretty clear he doesn't want to be paying for other country's defense/military spending.