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US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

reuters.com

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Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#831

Post by lopkeny12ko »

ra7 wrote: post #821
lopkeny12ko wrote: post #815

> NHTSA said it was opening the inquiry after four reports of crashes where FSD was engaged during reduced roadway visibility like sun glare, fog, or airborne dust. A pedestrian was killed in Rimrock, Arizona, in November 2023 after being struck by a 2021 Tesla Model Y, NHTSA said. This is going to be another extremely biased investigation. 1. A 2021 Model Y is not on HW4. 2. FSD in November 2023 is not FSD 12.5, the…

The perfect setup. By the time an incident in the “current” software is investigated, it will be outdated. All Tesla has to do is a rev a software version and ignore all incidents that occurred prior to it.

You are welcome to conjure whatever conspiracy theories you like but the reality is FSD 12.5 is exponentially better than previous versions. Don't just take it from me, this is what all Tesla owners are saying too.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#832

Post by lowbloodsugar »

drodio wrote: post #391

I drive a 2024 Tesla Model Y and another person in my family drives a 2021 Model Y. Both cars are substantially similar (the 2021 actually has more sensors than the 2024, which is strictly cameras-only). Both cars are running 12.5 -- and I agree that it's dramatically improved over 12.3. I really enjoy driving. I've got a #vanlife Sprinter that I'll do 14 hour roadtrips in with my kids. For me, the Tesla's self-drivi…

You are a living example of survivorship bias. One day your car will kill you or someone else, and then maybe you’ll be able to come back here and tell us how wrong you were. How, with your new experience, you can see how the car only “seemed” competent, how it was that very seeming competence that got someone killed, because you trusted it.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#834

Post by lukan »

sokoloff wrote: post #805
deergomoo wrote: post #787

This is an opinion almost certainly based more in emotion than logic, but I don't think I could trust any sort of fully autonomous driving system that didn't involve communication with transmitters along the road itself (like a glideslope and localiser for aircraft approaches) and with other cars on the road. Motorway driving sure, there it's closer to fancy cruise control. But around town, no thank you. I regularly…

> didn't involve communication with transmitters along the road itself (like a glideslope and localiser for aircraft approaches) and with other cars on the road There will be a large number of non-participating vehicles on the road for at least another 50 years. (The average age of a car in the US is a little over 12 years and rising. I doubt we'll see a comms-based standard emerge and be required equipment on new ca…

"There will be a large number of non-participating vehicles on the road for at least another 50 years."

I think so too, but I also think, if we would really want to, all it would take is a GPS device with internet connection, like a smart phone, to make a normal car into a realtime connected one.

But I also think we need to work out some social and institutional issues first.

Currently I would not like my position to be avaiable in real time to some obscure agency.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#835

Post by lopkeny12ko »

sashank_1509 wrote: post #819
lopkeny12ko wrote: post #815

> NHTSA said it was opening the inquiry after four reports of crashes where FSD was engaged during reduced roadway visibility like sun glare, fog, or airborne dust. A pedestrian was killed in Rimrock, Arizona, in November 2023 after being struck by a 2021 Tesla Model Y, NHTSA said. This is going to be another extremely biased investigation. 1. A 2021 Model Y is not on HW4. 2. FSD in November 2023 is not FSD 12.5, the…

HW4 is a ridiculous requirement, it’s only post 2023 and even then except Model Y, there’s no HW4. FSD in Nov 2023 is not latest but it’s not that old, I guess it’s not in the 12 series which is much better but no need to not investigate this.

That is literally the entire point. The whole investigation is moot because both the hardware and software are out of date, and no longer used for any current Model Ys off the production line.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#836

Post by lukan »

crazygringo wrote: post #800
deergomoo wrote: post #796

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case I hope they're prepared to work with local authorities to immediately update the map every time road layouts change, temporarily or permanently. Google Maps gets lane guidance wrong very often in my experience, so that doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

I kind of assumed that already happened. Does it not? Is anyone pushing for it? Honestly it seems like it ought to be federal law by now that municipalities need to notify a designated centralized service of all road/lane/sign/etc. changes in a standardized format, that all digital mapping providers can ingest from. Is this not a thing? If not, is anyone lobbying for it? Is there opposition?

"Honestly it seems like it ought to be federal law by now that municipalities need to notify a designated centralized service of all road/lane/sign/etc. changes in a standardized format, that all digital mapping providers can ingest from"

Why not just anyone and make that data openly avaiable?

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#837

Post by fweimer »

crazygringo wrote: post #800
deergomoo wrote: post #796

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case I hope they're prepared to work with local authorities to immediately update the map every time road layouts change, temporarily or permanently. Google Maps gets lane guidance wrong very often in my experience, so that doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

I kind of assumed that already happened. Does it not? Is anyone pushing for it? Honestly it seems like it ought to be federal law by now that municipalities need to notify a designated centralized service of all road/lane/sign/etc. changes in a standardized format, that all digital mapping providers can ingest from. Is this not a thing? If not, is anyone lobbying for it? Is there opposition?

Coordinating roadwork is challenging in most places, I think. Over here, it's apparently cheaper to open up a road multiple times in a year, rather than coordinating all the different parties that need underground access in the foreseeable future.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#838

Post by sva_ »

deergomoo wrote: post #787

This is an opinion almost certainly based more in emotion than logic, but I don't think I could trust any sort of fully autonomous driving system that didn't involve communication with transmitters along the road itself (like a glideslope and localiser for aircraft approaches) and with other cars on the road. Motorway driving sure, there it's closer to fancy cruise control. But around town, no thank you. I regularly…

I agree with you about the trust issues and feel similarly, but also feel like the younger generations who grow up with these technologies might be less skeptical about adopting them.

I've been kind of amazed how much younger people take some newer technologies for granted, the ability of humans to adapt to changes is marvelous.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#839

Post by phito »

eric_cc wrote: post #379
bastawhiz wrote: post #257

Lots of people are asking how good the self driving has to be before we tolerate it. I got a one month free trial of FSD and turned it off after two weeks. Quite simply: it's dangerous. - It failed with a cryptic system error while driving - It started making a left turn far too early that would have scraped the left side of the car on a sign. I had to manually intervene. - In my opinion, the default setting accelera…

That sucks that you had that negative experience. I’ve driven thousands of miles in FSD and love it. Could not imagine going back. I rarely need to intervene and when I do it’s not because the car did something dangerous. There are just times I’d rather take over due to cyclists, road construction, etc.

I hope I never get to share road with you. Oh wait I won't, this crazyness is illegal here.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#840

Post by lowbloodsugar »

hilux wrote: post #350
enslavedrobot wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are Autopilot videos this discussion is about FSD. FSD has driven ~2 billion miles at this point and had potentially 2 fatal accidents. The US average is 1.33 deaths/100 million miles. Tesla on FSD is easily 10x safer. Every day it gets safer.

Considering HN is mostly technologists, the extent of Tesla-hate in here surprises me. My best guess is that it is sublimated Elon-hate. (Not a fan of my former neighbor myself, but let's separate the man from his creations.) People seem to be comparing Tesla FSD to perfection, when the more fair and relevant comparison is to real-world American drivers. Who are, on average, pretty bad. Sure, I wouldn't trust data co…

That seems an odd take. This is a technologist website, and a good number of technologists believe in building robust systems that don’t fail in production. We don’t stand for demos, and we have to fight off consultants peddling crapware that demos well but dies in production. I own a Tesla, despite my dislike of Musk, because it is an insanely fun car. I will never enable FSD, did not even do so when it was free. I see even the best teams have production outages. Until Tesla legally accepts, and the laws allows them to, legal responsibility, and until it’s good enough that it doesn’t disengage, ever, then I’m never using it and nobody else should.
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