10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023 • Hacker News Board

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#831

Post by ekianjo » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 2:32 PM UTC

alsetmusic wrote: post #800

ekianjo wrote: post #793

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is the consequence of being sanctioned into oblivion for decades by the global hegemon or the consequence of having a clueless communist regime, since most communist countries do very poorly economically. Sanctions rarely give the whole picture.

> since most communist countries do very poorly economically. It’s almost as though being brutally sanctioned by a superpower makes it nearly impossible to succeed. Do you not see the irony of your statement?

You don't seem to be aware that Cuba actually trades with many countries, including the US, and this for a long time. https://www.britannica.com/place/Cuba/Trade

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#832

Post by grugagag » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 2:32 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #818

brookst wrote: post #809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that the massive multi-decade US sanctions had no impact?

They are saying that if the many ways that socialist countries have failed, there is always a hundred different excuses for why that specific example of failure doesn't "count". If your system is incapable of dealing with any sort of adversity, then that is failure of the system. All countries around the world have problems. And yet, most countries are able to deal with them. Unlikely, apparently, every major sociali…

Most countries have an incredible amount of debt and have nothing to show for it. Moreover, the borrowed money accumulated in high proportion only in a handful of pockets, leaving behind a flimsy corrupted society.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#833

Post by munchler » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 2:33 PM UTC

TedHerman wrote: post #814

Who are the most miserable, the citizens of Cuba or those of Haiti?

Haiti is currently a lawless hellscape, from what I understand. As bad as Cuba might be, I don’t think it’s in the same league.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#834

Post by kgwgk » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 2:35 PM UTC

alsetmusic wrote: post #800

ekianjo wrote: post #793

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is the consequence of being sanctioned into oblivion for decades by the global hegemon or the consequence of having a clueless communist regime, since most communist countries do very poorly economically. Sanctions rarely give the whole picture.

> since most communist countries do very poorly economically. It’s almost as though being brutally sanctioned by a superpower makes it nearly impossible to succeed. Do you not see the irony of your statement?

Was the USSR brutally sanctioned by a superpower? It was a superpower itself - it was supposed to be even more of a superpower!

"In the 1961 edition of his famous textbook of economic principles, Paul Samuelson wrote that GNP in the Soviet Union was about half that in the United States but the Soviet Union was growing faster. As a result, one could comfortably forecast that Soviet GNP would exceed that of the United States by as early as 1984 or perhaps by as late as 1997 and in any event Soviet GNP would greatly catch-up to U.S. GNP."

https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2010/01/so...

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#835

Post by dgb23 » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 2:36 PM UTC

mihaic wrote: post #824

noduerme wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> various European nations [...] some immigrant groups American Jew here, who spent years living in France and Spain. I've heard the same polite euphemisms refering to Arabs and Gypsies from the mouths of members of the Front National. You know, before 1945 it was said in Europe that Jews weren't able to integrate fully with the host society. One might ask: Was that the Jews' fault? Or the host society's fault? It's…

> I don't think the evidence definitively supports the conclusion that it's down to which group. I've lived besides Gypsy communities, and had during school Gypsy friends. Some were in the top of the class, and many were not. The big predictor for integration was not ethnicity but culture. Some have a culture that indoctrinated them to exploit and explicitly not integrate with the general population. How would you in…

> Some have a culture that indoctrinated them to exploit and explicitly not integrate with the general population.

Can we be more specific please?

I live in an European country and have not observed what you're describing here.

There are individuals and groups that have tendencies like you describe, but the generalization doesn't hold in my eyes.

I've had refugees in my family, inner circle, at workplaces and so on. The most general observation I can make is that people who tend to flee or migrate from authoritarian, politically oppressive places tend to be very appreciative of social democratic systems.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#836

Post by stef25 » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 2:37 PM UTC

mfru wrote: post #760

mattmaroon wrote: post #730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t brain drain imply the smarter people are moving? I’m not sure that’s what’s happening here. I think it’s anyone who can get out. When I was in Havana our AirBnB was next to the Spanish embassy. There was a long line every morning of potential emigres waiting for their turn. (I have no idea how the process works when they get to the front of the line, I just was told they were trying to get out of the country…

> After spending a couple weeks in Cuba it’s not hard to see why. Which is the consequence of being sanctioned into oblivion for decades by the global hegemon, much to the dislike of the entire rest of the world.

Ah yes, sanctions. That's what everyone said when I was in Venezuela toward the end of Chavez. Couldn't possibly be incompetence or corruption.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#837

Post by bavell » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 2:38 PM UTC

stouset wrote: post #594

gottorf wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not concerned about the crime You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. The author of the article you linked to also exhorts the Somali immigrant community to not engage in crime. > because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency until the 2nd and 3rd generation is able to make it into established society. History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups…

> You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. Then I have great news for them! Immigrants to the U.S. are responsible for fewer crimes per capita than native-born Americans.

Citations/sources conspicuously absent. If you go far back enough, just about the entire population of the US could be considered immigrants. Which wave of immigrants are you referring to? Are you including petty crimes in your claim or just the more serious ones?

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#838

Post by cardanome » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 2:40 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #818

brookst wrote: post #809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that the massive multi-decade US sanctions had no impact?

They are saying that if the many ways that socialist countries have failed, there is always a hundred different excuses for why that specific example of failure doesn't "count". If your system is incapable of dealing with any sort of adversity, then that is failure of the system. All countries around the world have problems. And yet, most countries are able to deal with them. Unlikely, apparently, every major sociali…

What capitalist country would be able to deal with this level of sanctions that Cuba experiences?

People hoped that even such a huge capitalist country like Russia would fall after sanctions. Granted, did not work out because Russia found alternative allies in China and Iran but the idea that capitalist countries can just eat up sanctions like nothing is insane. Otherwise sanctions wouldn't be a political tool to begin with.

Lots of capitalist African countries have people just starving on mass and that is despite having free access to markets and despite western countries not only not sabotaging them but on the contrary providing development aid. But you will tell me how that is "not real capitalism" and how they are doing it wrong. Real capitalism is just the few rich Western Nations, we don't talk about the losers.

Communist revolutions tend to happen in the poorest countries on earth and they face adversity on every step of the way. That they even manage to survive shows how resilient socialism is.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#839

Post by adornKey » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 2:40 PM UTC

twixfel wrote: post #702

wwtrv wrote: post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And then, once again, Europe blames the groups it refuses to accept. Can you explain in what way did this manifest in Sweden for instance? Or have any data/evidence besides some semi-vague claims about antisemitism and some immutable characteristics of European societies (which are hardly monolithic to begin with). It's not that I even necessarily disagree with what you're saying but unfortunately your comment is 8…

I am a British immigrant in Germany and I can vouch for how impossible it is to integrate into these northern European societies, if the rest are anything like Germany. I tick all the boxes of what German boomers would want in a "Good Immigrant" (white, educated, from western Europe, speaks German, good job), but it doesn't help. I think overall Germans, deep down, don't really want us here. We are here to pay for th…

I - a white German - got verbally attacked in the subway of Berlin by a man because I looked somehow foreign to him... So even being white and German sometimes doesn't help... Being from the wrong side of the village can be bad enough.

Integration is hard - I recently went to an intergration event at a local church - almost no Germans there - and also the different foreign communities didn't really interact with each other. E.g. there's severe hatered between the different groups of Turkish people.

I think there are a lot of outsiders in German society - ethnic integration is hard. Maybe Special interest groups - like Computer Meetups or Maker-Spaces can help with Integration into a new Clan?!

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#840

Post by grugagag » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 2:41 PM UTC

noduerme wrote: post #322

gottorf wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not concerned about the crime You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. The author of the article you linked to also exhorts the Somali immigrant community to not engage in crime. > because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency until the 2nd and 3rd generation is able to make it into established society. History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups…

> various European nations [...] some immigrant groups American Jew here, who spent years living in France and Spain. I've heard the same polite euphemisms refering to Arabs and Gypsies from the mouths of members of the Front National. You know, before 1945 it was said in Europe that Jews weren't able to integrate fully with the host society. One might ask: Was that the Jews' fault? Or the host society's fault? It's…

I think there’s a term confusion here, jews generally integrated well wherever they went but what they didn’t do was assimilate in the larger population. They kept their own traditions over the ones in the countries they migrated to and continued to keep tightly knited communities, to the envy or suspiciton of the host countries.