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GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

githubcopilotinvestigation.com

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Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#831
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copilot wouldn't be shut down or neutered because "a few vocal people" protested against it. It would be because it's illegal and violates the licenses, desires, and intentions of the thousands of workers who wrote the code in its corpus. You act like Microsoft is trying to do a public service and people are angry about it. The reality is that they're taking billions of hours of work and using it to build a product t…

> It would be because it's illegal and violates the licenses, desires, and intentions of the thousands of workers who wrote the code in its corpus I'm almost entirely certain you're wrong about the desires bit. 99% of the developers who wrote that code won't mind.

> 99% of the developers who wrote that code won't mind

This is completely unsubstantiated. I for one would mind microsoft profiting from the closed source code I wrote.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#832
The narrative here seems to be a David and Goliath story as Microsoft profits by stomping on the defenseless open-source communities. There's two problems with this story.

First, the huge majority of open-source projects are at no real risk because Copilot offers something totally different from what they offer. Open-source projects generally take highly-complex domains and expose them as simple interfaces or executable programs. This encapsulation is where the value lies.

In contrast, Copilot just dumps code. Never once doing front-end work have I thought "if only there was a way to dump verbatim React internals directly into my codebase." In general, Copilot only replaces tasks I would have otherwise done myself.

The second problem is the biggest loser if Copilot gets shut down is not Microsoft, who can easily take the loss in stride. The real loser is the community of developers, many of them bootstrapping their own projects or trying to develop open-source in their precious off-hours, for whom every minute counts, and for whom tools like Copilot can be the difference between success and failure.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#834
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, he clearly knew about that code in advance and used his prior knowledge to coax Copilot into spitting it out, yeah? Three characters can get you pretty far, that's 1 combination out of 125,580 (considering all english letters, upper and lower, along with most of the numbers and symbols on my keyboard), plus the description of a fairly complex algorithm. Also, this code is really just executing a mathematical…

> That sounds cherry-picked. Just because some high profile, highly-retweeted person says something doesn't make it not cherry picked. It's his code . This "high profile, highly-retweeted" crap is an appeal to emotion. He has a specific and legitimate interest in protecting his own intellectual property. It's not "cherry-picking" to report a crime being committed on your front lawn.

So why is he complaining about copilot and not the thousands of GitHub repositories redistributing his code with improper license? Typing the little code snippet he showed into copilot is analogous to typing it into the GH search bar and grabbing a properly-licensed result.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#835

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are assuming that "training" and "learning" in ML means exactly the same thing as "training" and "learning" in humans. It doesn't. The processes are completely different, with only an apparent resemblance.

No, they aren't completely different. Learning is learning.

> Learning is learning.

No, learning (by ML) is not learning (by humans). It's just a same word used in different context, and doesn't by itself imply that the meaning is the same. The underlying process is completely different. Neural networks, despite their name, don't share anything in common with human brains.

Do you have any other argument besides "the word is the same"?

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#836
I don't like that opensource code is being used in a commercial product. I feel concerned about NNs learning about stuff they aren't really "supposed to" learn, because somebody published something by mistake a long time ago. But this general argument about reproducing copyrighted code is stupid, and actively trying to shut Copilot down because of that is why lawyers are cancer.

Basically, what Copilot (or anything like that) is supposed to do is to speed up your work, i.e., ideally, to write exactly what you'd write, but orders of magnitude faster. How do you write code? Well, you may have a solution in mind — if it's something really original, rest assured, Copilot won't guess it. It can only hope to guess something that, in a sense "has a correct answer" to it. In fact, it does it worse, than it should be: graph traversals, matrix operations and such should be guessed flawlessly (in a perfect world every PL would have some primitives implementing them in the best possible way, but ours is not perfect). If you don't know how to traverse a graph, you'll go and look for a reference. 15 years ago it was likely a book, then looking up on the Wikipedia or StackOverflow became way more likely. For the last 5 or so years literally searching it on GitHub became viable because of better search engines and the sheer size of it.

Now, if I found a matrix transpose function in an open-source project, which I cannot include as a library for some (usually technical, but maybe not) reason, so I memorize it, close the page and re-type it in my IDE, do I have to be restricted by its license? Then, doing so is obviously stupid, so how about me just copy-pasting it, while renaming some variables so that the teacher wouldn't notice? And, given that this is not my homework, there's no teacher and variables are named perfectly as they are — doing that is also really stupid, so I might have just copy-pasted it. So, how about now, do I have to publish my code under GPL3 now? Is this theft? If any lawyers say yes — fuck these lawyers. It is nonsense.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#837
post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just sounds like blaming the researchers to me. How would i ever know if my "boring code completion" was actually copyright infringement? Your argument just disallows discussing the problem while doing absolutely nothing about it. If you train your dog to NOT attack random passersby and it still does, that dog is euthanized no matter your intentions.

If you train your dog to NOT attack random passersby and it still does, that dog is euthanized no matter your intentions. Of course, but you will not face manslaughter charges in that case. So, following the same logic, if you train your copilot NOT to infringe on other people's copyright and it still does, it should be destroyed no matter your intentions. But at least you won't be charged with copyright violation yo…

Personally, I think you are right distrusting MS ( as we should be we any corporation really ). I will admit that this attempt is working in a sense that it is a lot less clear to a non-computer person as to:

- whether there are any damages - what the big deal is

In my mind, the entire thread identified a lot of those, but I think someone already said that it will likely be tested in court ( and I have zero idea, which way it will turn ).

For the record, I personally think Copilot is a cool tool ( frankly, it is not that different from automated stack exchange in terms of results ). If I worry about anything, it is that the overall standards will decline even further.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#838

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here are a few thoughts I haven't formulated before: > It seems clear enough to me that training AIs on copyrighted works is typically or commonly a fair use under existing law, because the AIs can and commonly do learn non-copyrightable elements and aspects of those works. It's very obvious from enormous numbers of examples that current AI systems are capable of learning much more abstract features of human cultur…

I think any argument against generative AI should not hedge on there being a fundamental difference in how humans and generative models work. I mean sure, maybe humans aren't "just" doing sophisticated pattern matching, but there are good reasons to suspect this is some part of what we are doing. (Even if its not implemented with back-prop). e.g) consider the work of people like Anil Seth, who propose that our brain…

https://arxiv.org/abs/2106.06981 - Thinking like Transformes

The paper suggests that transformer work on a set of select, aggregate and element-wise operations. Which seems pretty close to the SQL statements i write from day to day.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#839
post #343

Oh man. I want to continue using co-pilot. It has improved my productivity and made me excited to do things that I previously felt like a chore. Also, programmers please do not hinder on other programmers work. If you do, someone higher up in the ladder with eat your cake at every opportunity.

Yes, we’d all find our work easier if we could just steal other people’s work.

You're probably stealing other people's code daily, willingly or not. Should we run a plagiarism scanner on all your code?

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#840
post #486

Here are a few thoughts I haven't formulated before: It seems clear enough to me that training AIs on copyrighted works is typically or commonly a fair use under existing law, because the AIs can and commonly do learn non-copyrightable elements and aspects of those works. It's very obvious from enormous numbers of examples that current AI systems are capable of learning much more abstract features of human culture (g…

> It's very obvious from enormous numbers of examples that current AI systems are capable of learning much more abstract features of human culture

This doesn't seem to translate well to code. You can't copyright 'rembrandt's style', which is what dall-e and co learn from analysing those paintings. But what copilot gives you is a sizable chunk of code. That code is (mostly) exactingly precise: It's not like the AI learned a style and recreates the style. It learns what you intended to do and then verbatim copies a code chunk in. I'm pretty sure the AI part comes in to determine what it is you were likely trying to do, so that it knows which code to copy. Not to generate the code out of the AI model. At least, that's how I understand it works.

That is the fundamental difference.

> OK, if you said "what word comes next? MR. AND MRS. DURSLEY OF NUMBER FOUR PRIVET DRIVE WERE PROUD TO SAY" ... same thing

Let the AI fill in the rest of that sentence and we can debate whether that is copyright infringement or not. However, if the AI system is capable of finishing that sentence, it can presumably fairly trivially be asked a slightly different question. Instead of 'finish the sentence', how about: "Suggest the next likely sentence". That system would presumably generate the next exact sentence straight from the book, and keep going and - voila you recreated the entire book.

Which is clearly copyright infringement.

AI systems have a 'volume dial' to configure how much they mix and match. Turn it down low enough and asking DALL-E for 'a girl with a blue bandana and an earring in the style of Vermeer' will just give you a copy of Girl with the Pearl Earring, reproduced sufficiently accurately that it's trivially a copyright infringement (let's leave out the notion that the painting has moved past its copyright date of course).

Point is, for copilot, the volume dial has to be kept extremely low, because you can't just mash 5000 snippets together, unless those snippets are identical. Which is its own intriguing copyright infringement conundrum (500 artists each individually paint the same thing, and they can each prove they weren't influenced by the others, thus, not copyright infringement. Then, you reproduce the averaging of the 500, which results in yet another painting. Did you just infringe copyright? Surely the answer is 'yes', but whose copyright did you infringe? All of them? Is it 'yes'?)

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