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Nobody wants to teach anymore

jessicalexicus.medium.com

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Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#831

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3. Teachers frequently complain about how they are unappreciated, yet children spend _12 years_ in their care. Why do people come up to them and say they hated school rather than “thank you”? Well many students hated school, it is what it is. If you get beat up on a daily basis or are bored out of your mind (because let's face it, most of the material IS boring) I don't see why you should feel obligated to thank yo…

I agree that there are reasons someone would hate school, but it doesn't make sense for it to be a cultural norm to say that to teachers. No one ever says "wow you murder people for Uncle Sam for money?" to someone who was in the military, they say "thank you for your service". I think that's what the author was getting at. It's not just low pay; teaching is thankless, even looked down upon.

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Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#832
post #795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don’t follow. Doesn’t paying more money or reducing class size (by hiring more teachers) directly imply the existing crop of teachers can’t handle the job? Or are you saying we pay the exact same people more money? And reduce class sizes how? Requiring students take fewer classes?

Even when they can handle it as best as you can expect from someone, it's still not going to be enough. You can reduce class sizes by hiring more teachers. Their salaries aren't actually a huge fraction of education spending (only around ~15% if you assume one teacher for every 30 fulltime students and 80k TC per fulltime teacher, both of which are deliberate overestimates). Hire 30% more teachers, give them a 30% pa…

Sports have a huge amount of value for young people, your perspective on this is not dearly as reasonable as you make it seem.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#833
post #724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> teachers work more in 9 months than most professionals I want to understand this more and think we need to measure this well. As a software dev, I’ve always struggled with measuring the amount of work performed and usually disregard measures of intellectual output as misleading measures (eg, lines of code, story points completed, whatever). What makes you think teachers work more in 9 months than a typical professi…

I've been working as a software dev for 20+ years,the only time I actually truly worked 60+ hours a week was when I was attempting to get my own startup off the ground. Other than that, it's usually been 10-15 of actual work work. Really not trying to brag, but to bring context to the conversation,I make 10 times what a teacher makes. I think it's a real problem teachers are underpaid and undervalued. IMO schools sho…

>IMO schools should have very basic facilities/luxuries, and awesome very well paid teachers (150-200k)

Parents and taxpayers want fancy new football fields, and they want teachers to be poorly paid because they want to look down on them.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#834
post #787
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"K-12 schools spend $666.9 billion or $13,185 per pupil annually." - https://educationdata.org/public-education-spending-statisti... We invest plenty. We just don't get a great return on our investment.

And yet a teacher with 30 kids in the class gets maybe 80k in a better paying state. 30 x 13k is $390k…. Something isn’t adding up. What are all the overheads?

Every rinky dink town has their own school system, superintendent, administrative overhead…

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#835
If you want to help teach computer science to high schoolers for two hours a week (before your day job), look into TEALS [1]. It's a rewarding way to teach the next generation of technologists/citizens/people. I've been a TEALS volunteer for five years while working at Google in NYC. The students are fantastic - curious, hilarious, and wonderful to be around. It's the best part of my day. You assist students with their projects and lecture if you wish. You work with the teacher to improve assignments/projects and help them be better teachers; so you're teaching them to fish. Going in to school stabilizes my schedule and gets me into the office earlier than I would on my own. Absolutely recommend it. They also have remote teaching opportunities.

[1]: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/teals

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#836

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, some contributions to a conversation are simply beyond the boundaries of common sense in such a way (blindingly obvious, unacceptable, dangerously naive, etc.) that ridicule is appropriate. Even if the contribution was made in good faith. Ridicule has numerous powerful social functions: it helps social groups self-govern, transmits knowledge from one generation to the next, enables social groups to…

I personally don't think ridicule is ever necessary or appropriate. Even if it results in compliance or submission in the moment, it's very likely to produce resentment. In an organization, it produces a culture of fear, rather than curiosity and initiative.

Ridicule can absolutely produce resentment, no doubt about it. It can cause workplaces to become toxic, cause people to shut down (or worse: cause people to _learn_ to shut down), cause people to cope in unhealthy ways like projection, bullying, etc.

However, consider that _satire_ is, fundamentally, ridicule. And it's very public (or at least intended to be). Often satire is one of the only ways that unaccountable power can be brought to account, or institutions which have overstayed their utility can be mobilized against.

It really depends on who's the butt of the joke. On HackerNews, we're mostly anonymous as to our individual identities, but at the same time, any one of us could unwittingly end up playing the part of a public archetype, representing anything from a naive and harmless misconception all the way to a rotten, spiteful ideology that nihilistically boasts of its intent to destroy everything. Some of those ideas need to be challenged. And the people that amplify those ideas need to be challenged too. Bad faith and ill intent warrant ridicule, if not outright invective and contempt (not very often to this degree, but as a history enjoyer, I'll die on this hill). But sometimes even a genuine, bona fide contribution _ought_ to be ridiculed, if it stems from a misunderstanding which amplifies a terrible idea - especially if it's a terrible idea with actual supporters. In this case, the bad idea was _technocratic solutions to complex social problems._ The context is important too: it's HackerNews, which has some of the most brilliant minds, willing to share deep, detailed insights into complex, systemic problems, glomming onto some of the most simplistic, reductive tropes about human needs and behavior. It's a kind of paradoxical, radically individualistic groupthink, which, taken to its logical end (or even just considered half-seriously with a modicum of self-awareness), would smother the social and economic conditions for a healthy society. A small set of shallow, rote answers to complex human problems, coming from defenders of “second-order thinking.” It needs to be challenged in a way that an overclocked galaxy brain can't intellectually weasel its way out of.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#837
post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we can all agree this is not a problem in Finland The county I live in has similar demographics to Finland. We get 350 applications for every open teacher position. Not very accurate to compare Finland’s homogenous population of 5 million to the United State’s incredibly diverse population of 330 million.

Finland has a lot of immigrants and refugees. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/nov/21/finland-ed...

It still is small. Also Finland's education results have been slipping, likely because of said immigration: "Finland has been displaced from the very top. In the 2012 study, Finland ranked sixth in reading, twelfth in mathematics and fifth in science, while back in the 2003 study Finland was first in both science and reading and second in mathematics." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Finland

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#838
post #661

The same problem is happening in NL, it's a downwards spiral really that concerns me a lot. The government is trying to improve the situation by increasing pay a little, but with the current inflation it is probably too little, too late. A relative of mine became a teacher after a career switch, and while she likes the work, there are many frustrations: - Parents have a 'the customer is always right'-attitude, and co…

I always respected Dutch teachers as they did the core work and didn't do extra work like after school sports or clubs. Is that correct? I feel US teachers are expected to do too much non-teaching work.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#839
post #457

Former HS math teacher here. It was the hardest job I’ve ever had. I still have nightmares about being back in the classroom 18 years later. I was easily working 12+ hours a day doing class planning, grading, etc. not to mention the actual teaching. Returning to programming my pay doubled and my stress level dropped profoundly. Teacher pay should easily be double what it is. (And about that summers off—with the excep…

I've wondered if the onerousness of lesson planning is due in part to the extremely fragmented nature of American education, where every school district formulates its own curriculum. I'd be curious to know what it's like for teachers who teach a standardized, national curriculum like France's.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#840

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, and hear me out: we could cut our military budget (which is larger than the next ten or so countries combined, both total and per capita) and start tipping the corporate tax share back towards the ~%50 it was sixty years ago and magically be able to: * pay teachers a fair wage * hire enough teachers, assistants, and admins so that teachers don't have to work at least another half a workday 'off the books' * fund…

Why is it always about more money? The US is usually in the top 3 spending per student (beaten only by small countries that represent statistical outliers like Norway or Luxemburg), so really, it spends the most. Yet, as many are quick to point out, all that money results in educational outcomes well below many European countries and also many Asian countries that spend far, far less.

The US is just a pretty expensive country. The cost of labor (highly correlated with wages) is pretty high compared to Europe even outside the coastal cities. Maybe not 4x though.

It would also be interesting to compare educational outcomes in particular US states to particular European countries. I suppose that the quality of education may be as unevenly distributed across the US as it is across Europe.

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