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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#831

Post by chii »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #674
aj7 wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No no no. The thesis topics are in graduate schools are more cutting edge, and the opportunity to interact with real science as an undergraduate are invaluable. I would tend to agree that excelling at a second tier university with a comprehensive program is an acceptable start. It generally gets you to a higher level. Competitiveness is about speed. Anyone can look something up. It’s about knowing things right off th…

It's a trade-off. I'd rather live in a democracy and take my chances with Covid-19 than live under an authoritarian regime. Even authoritarians are correct at least twice a day.

> live in a democracy and take my chances with Covid-19 than live under an authoritarian regime.

that's a straw man false dichotomy. It's not mutually exclusive. Just because trump and his administration handled it poorly, doesn't mean it can't be handled well under a democracy. Look at new zealand and australia - they handled it fairly well.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#832

Post by aj7 »

pishpash wrote: post #725
RC_ITR wrote: post #716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture Kind of wild to erase centuries of cultural heritage by implying that teaching academics with art is a uniquely Anglo-Saxan ideal.

It's not. Being well rounded is the ideal of the nobility in practically every settled culture, ancient or modern. It's the definition of "cultured". Having said that, it is a class marker, so participants of the dominant culture have a leg up.

Exactly. Nobody really successful is well-rounded. Who TF has time? Well-roundedness is great when you’re spending money earned by others.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#833

Post by onphonenow »

outlace wrote: post #470

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I h…

I used to work for a place that did the summer fancy extra-curriculars.

Basically, think a very very fun summer camp, BUT we would package in X service features, one per week. This was a win win. Parent's would pay because kid could put the stories of painting the walls in X town on the application, or cleaning up Y pollution on a beach. And the rest of the times the kids could have fun and learn cool stuff (I'm being vague because I liked the program even though you had to have good money to go).

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#834

Post by CamperBob2 »

charlieyu1 wrote: post #601
ceeplusplus wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> huge slap in the face to social mobility out of the middle class No, it was an intentional move to restrict the number of Asians admitted because despite their best efforts to hide it, prestigious universities' data showed systemic discrimination against Asians in the admissions process (see: SFFA vs Harvard). Removing the SAT removes some of the data that opponents can use to sue them. One of the reasons the UC re…

And this benefit the rich kids who can spend thousands of dollars per year to hire someone to plan a good resume for them

If wealth didn't incur some advantages, no one would bother to seek it.

I don't know how to fix that fundamental aspect of reality, or indeed if it should be fixed. Any ideas?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#835

Post by aj7 »

fma wrote: post #681
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

That was probably accurate "back in the day". My wife owns/runs an after school learning center and I can say that 1st/2nd generation take extra-curricular activities very seriously. That is not to say academic is out the window, but academics is not the only interest. As a matter of fact - I wrote a letter of recommendation for someone to volunteer at the library. Due to the competitive nature (I live in an area wit…

Yes. Preparing for internship culture.

Your wife’s hamsters pay to run on the hamster wheel. And your family benefits!

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#836

Post by chii »

ashtonkem wrote: post #655
strikelaserclaw wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wonder why these asian countries aren't doing laps around USA or other western countries if they were learning calculus in pre school.

Probably because high levels of math skill don’t translate to economic success. Analytical thinking is a good skill that math can teach you, but there is more than one path to that. In the context of a college education the ability to write clearly and persuasively is far more an important skill to learn. As someone with a degree in math, I’ve always found the monomaniacal focus on how America is “behind” on math edu…

A possible explanation that the US is still somehow leading despite the drop in proficiency in education (if that is indeed actually true), is that the high level of tech and investment done in the 70's and 80's are still playing out (and returning dividends). It might take one or two generations to pass before the cracks show up as real problems - like a demographic transition, you cannot patch it after the problem is discovered, but must anticipate and pre-empt the problem.

If the education in the US is in decline, then the next 2-3 decades will show a decline in innovation and tech improvements coming out of the US.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#837

Post by lightup »

selimthegrim wrote: post #810
lightup wrote: post #784

Earlier quoted context omitted.

THanks, he reminded me tonight that he scored 35 _twice_. LOL. I kinda suggested to him he try for perfect like his best buddy. Best buddy is accepted at Ivy school (but probably will not go due to cost from what he said).

Have you thought about MN State Mankato? They have a good math department and he can transfer elsewhere with good rec letters from there if he doesn't like it.

Thanks, yes, I talked with their new director about a month ago about hiring some of their people. Lin I believe. If you're Lin you might know who I am. Small newish program (~30 admissions per year) with TC presence but turning out people with actual skills.

Put yourself in my shoes. It's great that my kid got some college credit in high school but MN is not a great place to raise a family anymore nor is it safe or .... "Quality of life" isn't really a thing like it was.

And you see this from all sort of people here. Lots of people who grew up here are sick of it and want to leave or are in process of leaving.

For where I'm not sure.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#838

Post by tomatowurst »

parineum wrote: post #818
thedstrat wrote: post #804

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are intelligent people though that don't do well on standardized tests (or at least don't get top tier results). I agree that standardized testing is a good metric to get a general idea of aptitude, but I think it hugely fails in appreciating people who are able to solve 'non-standardized' problems. And those are actually the people who should be placed in top institutions

> And those are actually the people who should be placed in top institutions Do you really think there's this untapped group of "non-standardized" thinkers out there who belong in the to institutions but for standardized tests? This sounds a lot like something I'd tell myself when I was 16 instead of dealing with the reality that I was just a lazy, underachieving high school student and would have made a lazy, undera…

Reflecting back on my own attitude and performance in schools, I was just an underachiever who wanted more but refusing to put in the work. Now that I am an adult I can tell you what got me into this thinking and it was because of ego and unrealistic expectations that I built for myself based on what I was told.

"You have a high IQ, you are smart, you are intelligent, you don't study and you do well etc"

I let it get to my head and instead of growing, instead of recognizing what I didn't know, I focused on what I knew. Pride and ego. For a while it worked so I had no reason to doubt it. But when the sheer work load got to a point where effective time management, strong and consistent work ethic were required I couldn't pull it off.

its a downward spiral, you are not used to putting in effort and seeing good results. that is setting you up for failure.

now? people who do well on tests, who do well in school, are completely deserving because they put in the work and patience.

same with success, its not a matter of rolling dice but focus and it requires:

- knowing what i dont know

- effort & work

Yes there are really smart people out there who could really benefit from the above but many do not like to admit it. I do and now I take the time and effort to know what I don't know. This has nothing to do with race or equity but more to do with your attitude. Yes it can be influenced by our surroundings and events but everyday we get up and make the choice to believe or not believe what we don't know and know.

Having said that if you realize you are unconventional, realize why that is, because an unconventional path is riddled with false paths, pain and require faith. If you are conventional you need to rely less on faith and it is why many try to get others to follow it because it is less risky.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#839

Post by tcmart14 »

outlace wrote: post #470

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I h…

I'm not against standardized tests. What I am against is a test ran by a private company as a barrier of entry into a public institution. Private schools who want to require SAT/ACT, fine, they are private institutions, I see no issue them requiring a test administered by a private company. University of North Carolina, eh, can't we have a test ran by a public institution as a barrier of entry into a public institution?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#840

Post by bpodgursky »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #593
sparrc wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agreed. I could also buy a test prep book on amazon plus get a few others from the school and public libraries for a grand total of $15 spent on test prep. That's a lot cheaper than dedicating my working summer to smarmy volunteer/extra-curricular projects.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

I'm a 5th-generation white American with no interest in sports, band, or choir... and many of my Indian and east Asian first-generation high-school friends and I participated in activities like math club, knowledge bowl, science olympiad, etc etc.

Just because they aren't participating in YOUR extra-curricular activities doesn't mean they aren't engaged.

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