WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app • Hacker News Board

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#831

Post by corty » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 2:37 PM UTC

dusted wrote: post #828

kar1181 wrote: post #677

It's harder for US folks to understand just how much of a monopoly WhatsApp has in Europe and the UK. Pretty much all of our school and local community communication happens via WhatsApp. I'd change to Signal or Telegram in a heartbeat, but the inertia is so great it's not possible. It pains me to say, but we're getting to the point where companies like Twitter, Facebook and Google need to be treated like utilities o…

I disagree, they're NOT public utilities, they're private companies that people chose to use (why is beyond me). What could be considered instead, is building public utilities as a community.

Almost all public utilities have started as private companies of some kind. Broadcast, telecom and railway companies are the most recent examples. They started as private companies but then, due to limited spectrum, unification pressure, needing to include everyone including remote places and wasteful duplication got transformed into publically owned or at least publically licensed and regulated utilities (depending on which utility and country you are looking at).

So, while they are not yet public utilities, they should be turned into such.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#832

Post by heipei » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 2:38 PM UTC

xuki wrote: post #820

nindalf wrote: post #817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People didn't know I wasn't getting their messages. They saw 2 ticks, meaning delivered to your device? Or did they see one tick, meaning only delivered to the server? If it's the latter, that's a reasonable choice for the server to make. The server has acknowledged receipt of the message, and failed to send it to your device. If you wanted WhatsApp to advertise to your contacts that your account was inactive, you…

> The server has acknowledged receipt of the message, and failed to send it to your device. Doing this without explicitly telling the other party is a dark pattern.

I would wager that most people using WhatsApp know the difference between one tick (server receipt), two ticks (client receipt) and two blue ticks (client actually read it).

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#833

Post by driverdan » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 2:39 PM UTC

tdubhro1 wrote: post #692

kar1181 wrote: post #677

It's harder for US folks to understand just how much of a monopoly WhatsApp has in Europe and the UK. Pretty much all of our school and local community communication happens via WhatsApp. I'd change to Signal or Telegram in a heartbeat, but the inertia is so great it's not possible. It pains me to say, but we're getting to the point where companies like Twitter, Facebook and Google need to be treated like utilities o…

I'm also in the UK and I deleted WhatsApp 2 years ago when it became clear that Facebook intended to move in the direction of fuller integration (I deleted my Facebook account after 1 month of usage 10 years ago). However, I had to reinstall WhatsApp because all of my kid's sports activities and school updates are organised through WhatsApp groups and it is impossible to participate without WhatsApp. Much as I believ…

> I'm not going to go preach it to the volunteers who coach my kids' rugby team.

Why not? I would.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#834

Post by hkt » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 2:40 PM UTC

dan-robertson wrote: post #649

hkt wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I recommend Delta Chat? It's an email client (with clever, seamless encryption based on gpg) with a WhatsApp style interface. There's a desktop client too. I've only ever managed to get one person to use it, but goodness it'd be nice to get rid of WhatsApp. Edit: URL https://delta.chat/

Note that gpg provides worse security from an encryption standpoint than signal/WhatsApp

Care to explain?

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#835

Post by ubermonkey » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 2:40 PM UTC

What's weird is that I don't know anyone who uses it. This is because (a) I'm an American and (b) nearly everyone I know uses an iPhone, so we all use Apple's own messaging tool instead.

I know some crypto fans who really try to push for folks to use Signal, but there's too much inertia. WhatsApp isn't really on the radar.

It's wild to read how much of a monopoly it enjoys elsewhere.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#836

Post by hh3k0 » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 2:40 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #710

rusk wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it even with click thru agreement like this it is still illegal in the EU. Could be an interesting case on the way... I believe that WhatsApp only real option in this case is to stop serving the EU, which I feel as an EU residents could only be a good thing!

Who cares if it's "technically illegal" if there's no fines for it. I seriously doubt that the EU will grow teeth anytime soon (but I hope to be surprised!).

Google/Alphabet has received more than 8 billion Euro in fines by the EU. I wouldn't generally call them toothless.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#837

Post by skinkestek » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

raziel2p wrote: post #616

dessant wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get your point, but moving people to Signal has been an accomplishment on its own, you get to say "we should move to this new private app" only so many times, before your friends and family grab their torches.

If you want people to be privacy minded this is what you have to prepare them for, though. Signal could get bought out by a privacy-hostile company next year, or they could go out of business.

Or get a visit from the NSA.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#838

Post by corty » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 2:43 PM UTC

rusk wrote: post #714

tomp wrote: post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who cares if it's "technically illegal" if there's no fines for it. I seriously doubt that the EU will grow teeth anytime soon (but I hope to be surprised!).

It’s not the EU you need to worry about it’s the courts ... check out the whole Max Schrems Facebook thing and the Apple Tax stuff is yet ongoing ...

Yes, but both are examples of the EU not actually wanting to do the right thing, even if the courts say so. Privacy shield was shot down by Schrems in court, only to be replaced by the EU mumbling about "standard contract clauses, just do the same as before". No billions in penalties in sight.

Same for the Apple (and others') taxes in Ireland: While the Irish have been told by courts and the rest of Europe to collect the taxes they are owed, they just refuse to do so.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#839

Post by pmlnr » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 2:44 PM UTC

microtonal wrote: post #452

pmontra wrote: post #450

I'm in the EU. WhatsApp showed me a screen about new term of service right now. There were two buttons, Agree and Not Now. I tapped Not Now, it kept working.

Interesting. I am in the EU as well and got the new terms of service screen. Only an Agree button, but I could avoid agreeing (I hope) by clicking the cross (X) at the top of the dialog.

A/B testing, probably.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#840

Post by 542354234235 » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

silasdavis wrote: post #604

As others have mentioned increasingly small businesses (like my outdoor exercise class) and loose communities (like my child's school year parent's group) rely on WhatsApp. persuading these loose connections to move away from WhatsApp for one's own benefit is almost impossible. Sacrificing access to these social amenities on the altar of incremental privacy invasion and power transfer to an unaccountable basically ma…

I feel like the internet, and the digital activities that happen on it, are this generation’s railroads, power, and telecommunications in the 18th and 19th century. They started as wild free-for-alls and evolved into regulated and stable markets with consumer protections, standardization, right to access, etc., usually after corrupt and unethical monopolies got out of hand and showed the importance of the service as a basic utility needed for a functioning country, and the need to protect it.