M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness • Hacker News Board

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#831

Post by heavyset_go » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:46 PM UTC

Aissen wrote: post #767

ekianjo wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * the x86 world resolves around standards such as ACPI, BIOSes and general-purpose dynamic buses. > * ACPI normalises every single piece of hardware from the perspective of most low-level peripherals. > * the BIOS also helps in that normalisation. DOS INT33 is the classic one i remember. > * the general-purpose dynamic buses include: - USB and its speed variants (self-describing peripherals) - PCI and its derivativ…

ARM UEFI systems exist. There are now the norm on servers along with ACPI. Even some embedded devices use UEFI. There are other standards to address those various points. This post is so outdated, that ARM servers' companies had the time to have everything, then still die (most of them). And then revive with the AWS Graviton2 and other Neoverse chips.

It's not outdated, it holds true for ARM SoCs. Consumer ARM devices are ARM SoCs, and not server hardware. It's cheaper and easier to design custom SoCs than it is to build consumer hardware that conforms to the standards that ARM servers do.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#832

Post by dang » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:52 PM UTC

tambourine_man wrote: post #45

I submitted the same exact link 8 hours earlier. This HN behavior is very frustrating. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25285489

Yes, sorry—I know it's frustrating when a later submission 'wins'.

The reason we allow reposts of articles that haven't had significant attention yet is that it's largely random what happens to get noticed on /newest, and we want to allow good articles multiple rolls of the dice. The priority is on the article, not who submitted it. That does make it a bit of a lottery, and it's winner-take-all. There are definitely better solutions possible, and it's on my list to work on that someday. We'll expand how karma is reward for submitting an article (HN could use some karma inflation anyhow) and find some way of grouping related submissions together.

In the meantime, the lottery does at least even out in the long run if you keep posting good submissions.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#833

Post by grecy » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:59 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #704

grecy wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why can't we walk in and buy a Zen 3 in a laptop right now? .... because the thermals and engineering have not been designed/completed yet. Sometime in the future they will be, which is great. But that's the future. I'm still talking about right now. I like to buy things that actually exist and work today, not things that hypothetically work well in the future.

Well, no. The reason you can't buy one right now is because there is no 5nm TSMC capacity left to build them.

But you said I can get a 7nm one that is pretty close to the same thing. Why don't they sell me one of those in a laptop ready to go?

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#834

Post by mthoms » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 7:21 PM UTC

andrewprock wrote: post #578

coldtea wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The published benchmarks are mostly "meh" when it comes to anything at the prosumer level and above. Which makes sense, since those are the lower-speced Mac machines (Mini, Air, 13" Pro). At the level at which they compete (similarly speced Intel Mac sold until recently, Surface machines, PC laptops of the same price) they obliterate them. "meh at the prosumer level" for a consumer level machine is kinda like sayin…

If the 13" Macbook Pro is not for Professional work, then I guess that makes sense.

It makes sense. Just as the iPhone 12 Pro is not for "professional" photography.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#835

Post by heimatau » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 7:24 PM UTC

blunte wrote: post #781

heimatau wrote: post #759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would wager that they knew Same. It's pretty clear that they knew and those that were blindsided, earned to get a pink slip.

But unfortunately that's not how publicly traded companies operate. The highest paid execs just hang around for a few years, and almost regardless of how the company performs, they exit with a nice package and move into another company with a similar or better agreement.

Maybe you should read Andrew Grove's book. Intel used to be this way and I suspect they just intentionally made the easy choice, not the socially/business good choice.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#836

Post by ogre_codes » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 7:30 PM UTC

sliken wrote: post #823

bigbizisverywyz wrote: post #817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I don't really see how this will affect Intel financially in any meaningful way in the short term. They won't provide chips for Apple anymore, but that must have been a relatively small number of units, so no great financial loss to them. And Apple are never going to sell these chips generally, so there's no competition there. In the long term though it may actually benefit Intel (and AMD/NVidia) who might work o…

While Apple's volumes are low, often their parts are mostly the higher end chips. I think just about every i9 laptop mention I've ever seen has been in a MBP 16". So while it's 10-15% of Intel's volumes, I've heard numbers as high as 40% of the profit.

I have no idea how much of Intel's profit can be attributed to Apple, but Apple definitely buys more higher end laptop CPUs from Intel than anyone else. That's going to hurt their bottom line.

I also expect Apple will be picking up some market share. How much remains to be seen. If price/ performance was your primary reason for avoiding Apple, it's gotten a lot harder to resist switching.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#837

Post by sudosysgen » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 7:31 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #833

sudosysgen wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, no. The reason you can't buy one right now is because there is no 5nm TSMC capacity left to build them.

But you said I can get a 7nm one that is pretty close to the same thing. Why don't they sell me one of those in a laptop ready to go?

Because it would be a monumental waste of money to develop a 7nm version of the laptop chips for what, 3 months?

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#838

Post by ogre_codes » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 7:36 PM UTC

mthoms wrote: post #830

bigbizisverywyz wrote: post #817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I don't really see how this will affect Intel financially in any meaningful way in the short term. They won't provide chips for Apple anymore, but that must have been a relatively small number of units, so no great financial loss to them. And Apple are never going to sell these chips generally, so there's no competition there. In the long term though it may actually benefit Intel (and AMD/NVidia) who might work o…

That assumes Apple won't be growing its PC market share. Given the M1's benefits, the ability of Big Sur to run iOS apps, and Apple's marketing prowess, I'd be surprised if they don't double their market share in the next 3 to 4 years. Then there's the (highly lucrative) server market.

> Then there's the (highly lucrative) server market.

Apple has flirted with the server market on several occasions. I could see a well priced Apple server with an M series CPU doing quite well if Apple did it right. That said, Apple has never really shined here and it's not really their strong point.

I'm sure MacStadium would love if Apple launched a blade server platform where you could just slot Mac mini logic boards in.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#839

Post by grecy » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 7:38 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #837

grecy wrote: post #833

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you said I can get a 7nm one that is pretty close to the same thing. Why don't they sell me one of those in a laptop ready to go?

Because it would be a monumental waste of money to develop a 7nm version of the laptop chips for what, 3 months?

But surely the 7nm part has been around long enough, they should have been designing and validating it months before the part even existed...

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#840

Post by sliken » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 7:39 PM UTC

ogre_codes wrote: post #836

sliken wrote: post #823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While Apple's volumes are low, often their parts are mostly the higher end chips. I think just about every i9 laptop mention I've ever seen has been in a MBP 16". So while it's 10-15% of Intel's volumes, I've heard numbers as high as 40% of the profit.

I have no idea how much of Intel's profit can be attributed to Apple, but Apple definitely buys more higher end laptop CPUs from Intel than anyone else. That's going to hurt their bottom line. I also expect Apple will be picking up some market share. How much remains to be seen. If price/ performance was your primary reason for avoiding Apple, it's gotten a lot harder to resist switching.

I doubt much of the market cares particularly much about price/perf. But the $700 impact does seem like an impressive value that can do a wide range of things not normally considered for this price point. Things like editing 4k video.