Richard M. Stallman resigns • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#831

Post by GoblinSlayer » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 3:53 PM UTC

astine wrote: post #794

eloff wrote: post #736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it we value free speech, but there are certain discussions you just cannot have, even in a rational and measured way, without risking making yourself completely unemployable. You should be able to have a questionable viewpoint in a discussion, without worrying about the lynch mob ending your career. The consequences here are out of line. You can be reprimanded to take your discussions to a non company venue, i…

" How is it we value free speech, but there are certain discussions you just cannot have, even in a rational and measured way, without risking making yourself completely unemployable. You should be able to have a questionable viewpoint in a discussion, without worrying about the lynch mob ending your career. " I agree with this statement. Stallman has been a problematic person for a long time. I'm no fan of his. If a…

It all goes to the conclusion "you don't need free speech, you have nothing to say, google will talk on your behalf".

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#832

Post by eloff » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 3:57 PM UTC

sbuk wrote: post #828

eloff wrote: post #736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it we value free speech, but there are certain discussions you just cannot have, even in a rational and measured way, without risking making yourself completely unemployable. You should be able to have a questionable viewpoint in a discussion, without worrying about the lynch mob ending your career. The consequences here are out of line. You can be reprimanded to take your discussions to a non company venue, i…

So what is the difference between this and the way Eich was treated for his donation to Prop 8? I'm not saying I agree with Eich - far from it. Seeing as an awful lot of people on this very thread were outraged by his behaviour, it strikes me as being contrary to be more understanding towards RMS for what is arguably far more heinous simply because they admire him more. Both Gates and Jobs are/were relentlessly and r…

Source or STFU? When did he say "paedophilia is harmless"? You can't even have a conversation about paedophilia in reference to a 17 year old without seriously going off topic.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#833

Post by rpmisms » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:01 PM UTC

This is a sad day for the FSF. Yes, he's got bad opinions, but he's also done an incredible amount to serve the Free-as-in-Freedom community. He's a Great Man, but not necessarily a good one.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#834

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:01 PM UTC

eloff wrote: post #736

colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

How is it we value free speech, but there are certain discussions you just cannot have, even in a rational and measured way, without risking making yourself completely unemployable. You should be able to have a questionable viewpoint in a discussion, without worrying about the lynch mob ending your career. The consequences here are out of line. You can be reprimanded to take your discussions to a non company venue, i…

[deleted]

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#835

Post by bluecalm » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:03 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #762

eloff wrote: post #736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it we value free speech, but there are certain discussions you just cannot have, even in a rational and measured way, without risking making yourself completely unemployable. You should be able to have a questionable viewpoint in a discussion, without worrying about the lynch mob ending your career. The consequences here are out of line. You can be reprimanded to take your discussions to a non company venue, i…

I value free speech in that I value the government's inability to limit anyone's expression with only a few reasonable exceptions. I don't take "free speech" to mean anyone can say anything without consequence. The government has a whole lot of power and it comes with limits like free speech. That doesn't mean that people in my employ can say awful things and I should just ignore it. Free speech doesn't extend to bei…

There is more to free speech than what the law says about it. No one here as far as I can see argues that forcing RMS out is illegal. People argue for the principle that you should be able to express your views without fear of losing your livelihood. The problem is that there is no universally trusted authority on what is and what isn't acceptable speech. I find what RMS said to be less outrageous than what I regularly hear from politicians in recent presidential debates. Does it mean I should start firing employees expressing those views because of "consequences" or "freedom of association"? It would lead to a tribal world where you either walk the exact line of your institution/employer/group or you're out possibly with grave consequences for your financial and family situation.

In my country it's illegal to fire people for their political views even if the employer finds them immoral and incompatible with the culture they want to foster. It's part of legal and social framework to protect freedom of expression. Freedom of expression neither starts nor end with what The Constitution says about it.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#836

Post by tapesonthefloor » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:04 PM UTC

marble-drink wrote: post #505

I'm so relieved to find that at least on hacker news people can still evaluate this situation with reason. Out there it's a witch hunt and Stallman is now a witch. RMS is a great man but sadly has difficulties communicating with the wider world. This has been true of many great minds throughout history. It's sad to see it happen to one of my own heroes but I believe history will do him justice if we continue to fight…

>Stallman is now a witch

Funny that you evoke misogyny at this point, given how RMS is primarily a godawful human being to women, the vast majority of which your comment is ignorant of, willfully or otherwise.

This has been his godawful personality and behaviour at MIT for decades. It hasn't gone unreported. It hasn't gone unnoticed. But few appear to have ever acted on it appropriately, and the appropriate action here is removing him from any and all communities where he can do damage. It's occurring years too late, but at least it's occurring. It's sad that it took his association with a worldwide pedophilia/human trafficking ring to accomplish this, given his decades of ghastly abuse of peers/colleagues/students.

Even more sad that after this association has been revealed, communities like this one are significantly in self-defense mode.

If your response to this story is to get defensive, or to use keywords like "free speech," you have questions you need to ask yourself. Very serious questions. Questions that I guarantee your various communities want answers to before you engage with them further.

https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/d59r46/richard...

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#837

Post by lostjohnny » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:06 PM UTC

This is one of those cases where Reddit > HN

"Context: In a recently unsealed deposition a woman testified that, at the age of 17, Epstein told her to have sex with Marvin Minsky. Minsky was a founder of the MIT Media Lab and pioneer in A.I. who died in 2016. Stallman argued on a mailing list (in response to a statement from a protest organizer accusing Minsky of sexual assault) that, while he condemned Epstein, Minsky likely did not know she was being coerced:

> We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates.

Some SJW responded by writing a Medium post called "Remove Richard Stallman". Media outlets like Vice and The Daily Beast then lied and misquoted Stallman as saying that the woman was likely "entirely willing" and as "defending Epstein". He has now been pressured to resign from MIT

Furthermore the deposition doesn't say she had sex with Minsky, only that Epstein told her to do so, and according to physicist Greg Benford she propositioned Minsky and he turned her down:

> I know; I was there. Minsky turned her down. Told me about it. She saw us talking and didn’t approach me.

This seems like a complete validation of the distinction Stallman was making. If what Minsky knew doesn't matter, if there's no difference between "Minsky sexually assaulted a woman" and "Epstein told a 17-year-old to have sex with Minsky without his knowledge or consent", then why did he turn her down?

Edit: He has also resigned from the Free Software Foundation, which he founded. Grim news for free software, since I think true-believing purists like Stallman are vital to prevent various kinds of co-option."

source: https://old.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/d5axzu/why_...

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#838

Post by lostjohnny » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:06 PM UTC

decoyworker wrote: post #649

marble-drink wrote: post #505

I'm so relieved to find that at least on hacker news people can still evaluate this situation with reason. Out there it's a witch hunt and Stallman is now a witch. RMS is a great man but sadly has difficulties communicating with the wider world. This has been true of many great minds throughout history. It's sad to see it happen to one of my own heroes but I believe history will do him justice if we continue to fight…

I find it ridiculous that he has trouble communicating ideas as an engineer.

You, sir, made my day!

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#839

Post by xwolfi » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

craigsmansion wrote: post #722

colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

RMS was pointing out inaccuracies in how a deceased colleague who was being accused of a heinous crime might simply have slept with a prostitute, if at all (which turns out probably wasn't the case). > This is a man who said something wildly inappropriate in an MIT forum and got fired. This is a man who said something mildly inappropriate in a forum, as is his wont. > He deserved it. A completely appropriate and reas…

Maybe Stallman should focus less on rape and sex, and more on writing software. We're still waiting for HURD...

Seriously, what is it with all those people discussing in corporate and public function their stupid opinion of the moral definition of rape. Let justice speak, and you, speak privately. For someone lauded as a genius of some sort, he could have maybe understood what you can say where.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#840

Post by throwaway913 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

I only wish all the other pedo/rape apologists were as dumb and and socially inept as RMS and the people posting here. It would make it a lot easier to root them out.

People are panicking now because Epstein finally got taken out and there are probably thousands of people guilty of Rape who can be hunted down because of their connections to Epstein. The last thing they want is to be publicly defending anything even closely related to this because it draws more attention to them.

RMS is an idiot. Now the mob will be pouring over every inch of his life to see what they can pin on him. That is what these people deserve though. Epstein died way to easy and the mob is still hungry for blood.