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Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

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Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#831

Post by bargl »

bsamuels wrote: post #78
taneq wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time to re-read "I can tolerate anybody except my out-group."

That article is all I can think about whenever these political problems come up at Google. Here's a link for anyone interested: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anythin... I don't recommend reading it unless you can tackle the entire thing though

>But the best thing that could happen to this post is that it makes a lot of people, especially myself, figure out how to be more tolerant. Not in the “of course I’m tolerant, why shouldn’t I be?” sense of the Emperor in Part I. But in the sense of “being tolerant makes me see red, makes me sweat blood, but darn it I am going to be tolerant anyway.”

Wow. Yeah. Being accepting and loving is hard. It's one of the hardest things you can do, but only if that person is part of your out group.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#832

Post by scoobyyabbadoo »

freshhawk wrote: post #642
LordFast wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me clarify: - A non-decision by Google management to not place limits on its internal culture is a decision in itself, and has consequences that we are currently experiencing. - "Justice" is not something for a profit-seeking company to have influence or power over. This is my personal belief. I believe there are other channels that are better designed to address those issues. - My belief on this subject is limit…

> "Justice" is not something for a profit-seeking company to have influence or power over. But since they do in reality, especially if they are profitable and thereby gain power, it seems like something that should be discussed. It would be great if they actually didn't have influence or power over justice, definitely, but they do.

Why should a bunch of tech workers be administering justice? We've elected government officials to handle that.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#833

Post by SllX »

freshhawk wrote: post #642
LordFast wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me clarify: - A non-decision by Google management to not place limits on its internal culture is a decision in itself, and has consequences that we are currently experiencing. - "Justice" is not something for a profit-seeking company to have influence or power over. This is my personal belief. I believe there are other channels that are better designed to address those issues. - My belief on this subject is limit…

> "Justice" is not something for a profit-seeking company to have influence or power over. But since they do in reality, especially if they are profitable and thereby gain power, it seems like something that should be discussed. It would be great if they actually didn't have influence or power over justice, definitely, but they do.

If you take a look inside the United States for a moment, you’ll realize we actually have a fairly hard division between civil, criminal, and political disputes.

Civil justice concerns two private parties, typically adjudicated by a Judge and Jury when they cannot reach an agreement.

Criminal justice concerns the State, represented by the Attorney-General or someone who works for him, and someone found to be in criminal violation of the laws of the State. They murdered, raped and/or defrauded someone, or something like that. The State takes a special interest because they have a monopoly on violence to enforce, and no one wants people taking Justice into their own hands. It would violate the social contract.

Political justice is typically subjective, an example of political justice would be Congress impeaching and removing a President or other official from Office.

What form of Justice are corporations specifically found to have disproportionate influence over? Certainly they might influence some laws and regulations around the governing of their business practices, but not all laws are concerned with Justice.

Justice is the domain of legislatures, Attorneys-General, police officers, juries, lawyers, prosecutors, public defenders, and so on. Justice is the domain of people that have the power to detain, arrest, try, pass judgement, imprison and kill you.

You take it as a given that they have this power and influence, but let’s say they do. Why would we formalize that state of affairs implicitly or explicitly? Their job is to be profitable, it is not to act in any meaningful capacity on Justice.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#834

Post by Buge »

LordFast wrote: post #466
jgunsch wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked there for a similar length of time, but more recent (2012 - early 2019). The internal political discourse over that time definitely mirrored the rest of the world: becoming increasingly heated and divisive during 2016 and largely escalating since. On the whole, it felt like it pushed the company in a positive direction --- internal discussions mirroring #metoo led to more visibility of sexual harassment and…

Disclaimer: my comment below is directed at the culture of Google, and following in the train of thought from your comment. It's not directed at your comment or you. Reading this comment just makes me feel baffled. How much arrogance does it take for a bunch of Googlers to assume the belief that they know what is "just" for the rest of the world? An organization(in this case, a for-profit company) created to deliver…

>An organization(in this case, a for-profit company) created to deliver products and services to consumers and advertisers playing politics on the world stage is laughable at best, and downright irresponsible at worst.

Most large companies have lobbyists. That's much more "playing politics" than simply deciding not to bid on a military contract.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#835

Post by trenselor »

tomcam wrote: post #830
einhverfr wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem is that the US has developed for various reasons (including a lack of discussing politics) a series of echo chambers and people don't connect politically beyond their echo chambers. In urban California, among software developers, you are likely to have one or two political views represented at most, and these represent a small racial and class-based cross-section of urban California. The first of…

Any citations for “Business Liberalism view of the elite GOP members such as the Koch brothers”? Unable to confirm this term

See? Google filtered your search. The libs run search.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#836

Post by Buge »

caseysoftware wrote: post #763
Aeolun wrote: post #726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How much arrogance does it take for a bunch of Googlers to assume the belief that they know what is "just" for the rest of the world? Not very much? Doesn’t everybody think like this in one way or another? I certainly know what is better for the world than the majority of the US.

No, it takes extreme arrogance. People who look at someone else and think "you should just.." are normal. We all do that. People who look at the world and say "everyone should just.." are the height of arrogance and epitomize the phrase "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Is Google saying "everyone should just.."? It sounds like jgunsch's comment is about "what should we (Google) do?". That is, should Google bid on the JEDI military contract, should Google make a censored search product in China.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#837

Post by stcredzero »

justinmeiners wrote: post #628
manigandham wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every company becomes a "traditional" company because only traditional companies have survived. If alternative structures worked well then we would've seen them by now. Also I'm willing to be that a startup's lack of bureaucracy and momentum lets it experiment and move faster rather than just a carefree internal attitude. I've been in midsize companies on both sides of the free-culture spectrum and have never noticed…

Have you heard this economic joke before? "Hey there is a $20 bill." "No it's not. If it was really $20, someone would have picked it up already."

Actually, there's a TED talk where the implementers of remote, self-contained ATMs in India had to modify their procedures and deliberately rough up and age their paper money. Otherwise, people didn't believe that the crisp, perfect paper money that came out of those remote ATMs was real money.

If it was really ₹2000, someone would already have roughed it up already.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#838

Post by jtolmar »

LordFast wrote: post #466
jgunsch wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked there for a similar length of time, but more recent (2012 - early 2019). The internal political discourse over that time definitely mirrored the rest of the world: becoming increasingly heated and divisive during 2016 and largely escalating since. On the whole, it felt like it pushed the company in a positive direction --- internal discussions mirroring #metoo led to more visibility of sexual harassment and…

Disclaimer: my comment below is directed at the culture of Google, and following in the train of thought from your comment. It's not directed at your comment or you. Reading this comment just makes me feel baffled. How much arrogance does it take for a bunch of Googlers to assume the belief that they know what is "just" for the rest of the world? An organization(in this case, a for-profit company) created to deliver…

These "arrogant" Googlers aren't changing the magnitude of Google's impact on people's lives. Google's impact will still be there if they go away. There is no option that makes it go away. The choice is between the company's workers trying their best to come up with a just way to pilot it, or Google's impact being directed entirely by its executives and profit motive.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#839

Post by austhrow743 »

LordFast wrote: post #466
jgunsch wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked there for a similar length of time, but more recent (2012 - early 2019). The internal political discourse over that time definitely mirrored the rest of the world: becoming increasingly heated and divisive during 2016 and largely escalating since. On the whole, it felt like it pushed the company in a positive direction --- internal discussions mirroring #metoo led to more visibility of sexual harassment and…

Disclaimer: my comment below is directed at the culture of Google, and following in the train of thought from your comment. It's not directed at your comment or you. Reading this comment just makes me feel baffled. How much arrogance does it take for a bunch of Googlers to assume the belief that they know what is "just" for the rest of the world? An organization(in this case, a for-profit company) created to deliver…

How arrogant do have to be to not lie, steal, cheat, and kill?

Not at all because acting according to your morality is a basic part of being a human or member of society.

There's no reason that changes because you take your fun hat off and put your work hat on.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#840

Post by jtolmar »

olalonde wrote: post #823
malvosenior wrote: post #809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Search is entirely a technical problem. There are literally no politics involved.

Sadly, a lot of people genuinely believe that everything is political. I recently expressed hope for the "no politics" guideline of HN be more strictly enforced and was told that "not talking about politics is politics". Frustrating to deal with this mindset...

I'm certainly one of those people. What is the boundary between "politics" and "not politics?" Who gets to decide?

Your employer probably has more effect on your day to day life than your government does. Why would you be allowed to debate what the latter should do but not the former?

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