I think instead of trying to lower the bar for low income students, we should work on solving the actual problems causing them to perform more poorly on the SAT (or adjust the SAT so it is more representative of their actual skills). If students are accepted with a lower SAT score because of their background, they are likely going to struggle in University, since they have lower scores than the rest of their class, s…
> On the other hand though it might be essentially impossible to close the gap between low income and high income students. If this is a goal a society set it is possible. Remove the parents from being involved in their children education. When born, remove the children from their parents and send them to some national education system until they're adults.
SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships
831–840 of 959 posts
Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships
#832Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hardship is relative. There's always someone who's had it harder than you. His parents sacrificed things to get him the resources he needed to succeed, is his point. They sacrificed things that the parents of other kids did not.
People are starting at different points. His parents were physically able to do what they did. If his dad had been disabled, or dead, he wouldn't have been able to commute for 4 hours. Would that make his dad less virtuous?
Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships
#833Earlier quoted context omitted.
> what if it simply comes out 100% effortlessly? What magical world do you live in? Have you ever acquired any skill in your life?
Did you see the reference to 'autistic savant' up above? That was the example referenced. And even if someone does work/practice some, if the effort is minimal relative to other people ('normal' people, or what not), does it diminish the ability because they didn't "work hard" for it? personally, I'm no savant, but as a child I really didn't have to work hard at anything in school. I was pushed up a grade, and was st…
My claim is that the latter is a skill that nobody is born with. Autistic savants aren't some type of magic creature that know things just by virtue of being savants. They still have to go through the process of skill acquisition. Now that process may be accelerated compared to me or you, but I disagree with your claim of proficiency with zero effort, especially with skills that have shown to require thousands of hours of deliberate practice to establish proficiency.
I think the key is in your last statement: "or appeared effortless relative to peers' efforts". It seems you found yourself in an environment which didn't sufficiently challenge you. This would only argue that you should've been pushed up to more challenging AP/honors classes. This would again have the effect of placing you in a higher standing compared to your peers. So if both you and your peers would be pushed to your true potential, it seems consistent with your statements to say your performance/output would've been superior.
So why should colleges deny you entry because of your ability to be proficient in the system they've set up?
Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships
#834Earlier quoted context omitted.
Isn't it both? There are only X spots per school. Every person being helped up and admitted is someone being pulled back and denied. I have no opinion on this debate, but school admissions are a zero-sum-game, afaik.
In terms of school admissions I would agree. In terms of society in general however i'm not entirely convinced that it's a zero sum game.
Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships
#835Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships
#836Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's much easier to say that the only thing about it that's clear is that the poster is sarcastically enthusiastic about the hypothetical end of some slippery slope. How that conjecture relates to the actual matter at hand, or what the poster really believes about it is left untold. The post a level above it in the thread on the other hand makes a reasoned case for why this might not be a good idea, rooted in the act…
Reductio ad absurdum is useful. Sounds like you agree. Idk why label it a slippery slope, it's pretty cut and dry. SAT scores def do determine who gets to work on your heart.
Maybe, but in this case I don't think that it was for the reasons that I've previously stated.
> Sounds like you agree.
What makes it sound like I agree? The only opinions I've divulged are on the quality of the post as an entry to the debate.
> Idk why label it a slippery slope, it's pretty cut and dry.
Please offer an opinion on whether its use was legitimate and based on a reasonably likely chain of events, but don't tell me that this wasn't using a slippery slope as a rhetorical device. It's not cut and dry, it's hyperbolic and vague, as bitter sarcasm tends to be.
> SAT scores def do determine who gets to work on your heart.
... and if that argument had been voiced I might have agreed or disagreed, but it wasn't.
Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships
#837Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Yeah, but if you're doing all that, and you're landing between 34 and 36? I mean, let's be frank, Stanford is not looking at you if you're lower than 33. (Unless you have a wicked 3 point shot. Or you're a genius on the piano or something.) So, yeah, you did all that test prep, and end up scoring about the same as some local yokel from Angleton, TX who took the test cold? Or some broke kid from Chicago who took the…
I mean, it's just common sense though. As an analogy, that automatically popped to my mind when I initially heard the idea of "adversity scores", we can think about a common squad or platoon level personnel situation in the military. Some guys win lots of trophies at shooting contests, and display impressive marksmanship down at the shooting range. But some guys can shoot at that same superhuman level in a fog, with…
It's not. Some students apply with subpar scores, but often the majority of applicants to these universities apply with perfect or close to perfect grades and SAT scores (think 3.9+, as many AP classes as the school offers, good extracurricular, and probably a >2200 SAT or >33 ACT). It's not just about performance, there's a lot of additional character judgement and luck involved. I went to one an institution widely considered "elite" myself, and I can say firsthand that plenty of students from other universities are just as smart and can work just as effectively under pressure as my classmates. The universities themselves state that many more qualified students apply than are positions. For universities where this is legal, race absolutely comes into play as far as which applicants are selected. There are many universities that can't discriminate based on race due to legal restrictions, and it's widely suspected that this adversity score will be engineering to be strongly correlated with demographics these institutions discriminated in favor of when such discrimination was legal. A backdoor means to what is meant to be prohibited discrimination.
> No one is taking a bet on anyone's parents, strung out or not. They're taking a bet on one of these kids. I posit that Stanford or SAT or whoever would be correct. The impoverished local yokel from Angleton, TX with strung out parents and a cold, unpracticed 35, is a better bet than the guy with 35 through the efforts of a ton of expensive test prep. And it's obvious that part of why he's a better bet is that he can score the 35 under much less optimal conditions than the guy with expensive test prep can.
Yeah, but how we engineer the metric to measure how much of an "impoverished local yokel" is easily subject to abuse. The fact that these 'Adversity Socres' are kept private is highly suspicious. This comes on the heels of racial discrimination becoming more prohibited by the current government. There's strong reason to suspect that this is about circumventing the principles of equal protection of the law. And this is to mention the possibility of people gaming this system to portray themselves as enduring adversity. Wealthier people can probably better min-max this system to boost their diversity scores. Not to mention, in doing so we may be discouraging things that are demonstrated to be healthy. If this adversity score penalizes two parent households, then we're basically discouraging marriage. Even if its creation is earnest, it could easily have negative effects.
Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships
#838Earlier quoted context omitted.
I already talked to my wife about this. I would retire, we would divorce, and I would rent a shitty apartment in East Palo Alto all the while living in our house. If they think they can boil my kids into a single number without bothering to find the context of who my kids are then I will game it to as much as possible. I don’t know why my family should be punished because my wife and I worked our asses off to get ahe…
I understand the feeling, but how about if we rephrase it from another viewpoint: I don’t know why I should be punished because my parents didn’t succeed financially. I work hard in highschool but don’t have extra private tutoring or parents who can help me with calculus homework. I’m hard working and bright but how can I compete with kids from Saratoga High School where everyone’s parents went to MIT/Penn and work a…
Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships
#839Earlier quoted context omitted.
The only skill you gain while cramming for the SAT is how to cram for tests like the SAT. The gameability of the SAT is not an indication of general scholastic aptitude
If general scholastic aptitude measured something other than how to study for tests and write essays, then you might be onto something, except that college is simply more of the same.
Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships
#840Earlier quoted context omitted.
Reductio ad absurdum is useful. Sounds like you agree. Idk why label it a slippery slope, it's pretty cut and dry. SAT scores def do determine who gets to work on your heart.
> Reductio ad absurdum is useful. Maybe, but in this case I don't think that it was for the reasons that I've previously stated. > Sounds like you agree. What makes it sound like I agree? The only opinions I've divulged are on the quality of the post as an entry to the debate. > Idk why label it a slippery slope, it's pretty cut and dry. Please offer an opinion on whether its use was legitimate and based on a reasona…
Your actual objection seems to be that it's hypothetical when in fact that's the point of the technique.
I think you can understand parent. Why claim a simpler non-sarcastic example on how honest test scores matter was somehow not made?