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EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

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Re: EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

#831

Post by anigbrowl »

wokwokwok wrote: post #793
anigbrowl wrote: post #780

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's time technologists stopped assuming they're the cleverest persons in the room and rectified their ignorance of law and economics before assuming they're in the right about everything. I'm not a fan of onerous copyright legislation but simply asserting that 'information wants to be free' is stating an opinion, not some scientific law. Hackers and developers are just as subject to the Dunning-Kreuger effect…

My my, its certainly easy to tell people off isn't it? ...but perhaps if instead you offered a compelling argument to the counter? The EFF has laid out a lot of reasons this is problematic, and they are very familiar with the situation.

I have offered many such arguments if you would like to peruse my comment history. I've been debating these issued for about 25 years now, and have several friends who work at the EFF.

Re: EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

#832

Post by charleslmunger »

wolfgke wrote: post #765
08-15 wrote: post #741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do these politicians really not understand the awful implications of these filtering systems for free speech and fair use? They do, and free speech and fair use are important issues to them.

> They do, and free speech and fair use are important issues to them. The German law that is related to what US citizens call "copyright law" (Urheberrechtsgesetz) (note that I use this careful formulation, since Urheberrecht and copyright are based on different ideas) has no concept of "fair use". Also, traditionally, in Germany, there is culturally a different understanding of what US citizens call "free speech" (f…

IANAL, but the legal answer for why free speech and copyright aren't mutually exclusive is that copyright is an explicitly listed power of congress in the constitution:

The Congress shall have Power To... ...To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

and

Congress shall make no law... ...abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;

So it's implied (by the constitution not being tautological) that there's a balance between the right of the people (free speech) and an power of congress (to implement copyright). Note also that that defamation/libel are not protected by the first amendment, but the theshold for proving it is high - information has to be known to be false to the speaker, and inflict an actual injury. For public figures and politicians, the speaker has to have "actual malice". These are not often proven. For example, "sell more newspapers" would not rise to the level of "actual malice".

Re: EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

#833

Post by lovich »

sieabah wrote: post #715
0x5f3759df-i wrote: post #711

>However, those backing these provisions say the arguments above are the result of scaremongering by big US tech companies, eager to keep control of the web’s biggest platforms. This is the most hilarious quote in the article. The only thing this will do is entrench massive players like Google and Facebook who already have these systems in place. I honestly cannot comprehend how anyone could support this law while ha…

It's simple, the EU wants it's own internet like China. No more filthy US internet with talk about free speech and fair use.

I see part of your argument, but the internet in the US is by no means full of free speech and fair use. The government has their hands on every major service provider and ISP and has used their power to compel companies to give information or censor data.

What's happening here is the EU is seeing every other major power lock down their internet, so why would they leave theirs open which would also allow foreign meddling?

Additionally the tech megacorps are trying to claim that they are open platforms and so shouldn't be responsible for user posted data while censoring and removing user posted data when it suits their economic means.

I'm a proponent of free speech, but the internet stopped being a bastion of free speech year ago. It's crazy to think that the EU was going to sit their and let companies do what they please, when those same companies we're already preventing users/EU citizens from doing so

Re: EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

#834

Post by gspetr »

trendia wrote: post #737
dmix wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about foreign companies operating in europe...wouldn't they have to comply? Or does this only apply to companies with headquarters in Europe?

Honest question: What happens if a Russian or Chinese search engine doesn't comply? How would the EU block them? This is especially important if the Russian or Chinese entity has no locus or presence in Europe. (for instance, would you be able to get around it using a different DNS, or by using a VPN?)

Russian Yandex is incorporated in Netherlands, which is a founding member of the EU.

Re: EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

#835

Post by gefh »

08-15 wrote: post #741
0x5f3759df-i wrote: post #711

>However, those backing these provisions say the arguments above are the result of scaremongering by big US tech companies, eager to keep control of the web’s biggest platforms. This is the most hilarious quote in the article. The only thing this will do is entrench massive players like Google and Facebook who already have these systems in place. I honestly cannot comprehend how anyone could support this law while ha…

> Do these politicians really not understand the awful implications of these filtering systems for free speech and fair use? They do, and free speech and fair use are important issues to them.

Please elaborate?

Re: EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

#836

Post by apocalypstyx »

DINKDINK wrote: post #779
apocalypstyx wrote: post #726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if the collateral holder doesn't want to return said collateral? And while this may work(1) for a theatre-model (where the consumptive act can be funneled into a tightly-controlled venue (which is something I already posted about a few day ago, so I won't repeat that but what is necessary)), how is any mechanically reproduced media to be distributed to individuals? That is to say, DVD and Blu-ray and such media,…

We can use a simple hypothetical test for many of these issues: Say I read and memorize a book of poetry which statists and corporatists categorize as "copyrighted". I then go into my friend's house and tell him these poems aloud. You either believe that I have the right to my own memories and I can talk to my friend or you think I should be fined/imprisoned to subsidize a particular business model.

You have tested nothing.

Supposing there are only two alternatives and that the elimination of the one vindicates the other is at best intellectual laziness and at worst disingenuous.

One could posit you shouldn't be able to read poetry in the first place, so the rest becomes moot. And I would probably bet there are likely many more alternatives that someone more intelligent and more erudite than I could conceive.

First, you erred in thinking there only two poles in this argument. Then you erred by ascribing me to either one of them.

You, of course, are always free from this point forward (I wouldn't propose that you revisit all your former post as that would be an undue burden), but you are, of course, free from this point forward to prefix your further posts with: 'this post is hereby released under the terms of the CC0', or something equivalent.

Be the change you want to see in the world.

Re: EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

#837

Post by int_19h »

mcv wrote: post #817
untog wrote: post #739

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the EU have a problem with wealthy donors? I've heard this criticism levelled against US politicians and it's justified, but in this case I think it might just be sheer ignorance on the part of the EU legislators.

Not in the same way as in the US, and I don't think campaign contributions are a thing, at least not at the same level as in the US. But there are many, many lobbyists active in the EU, and some of them have a surprising amount of influence over politicians. There has even been a case where two different parties, independently from each other, introduced the exact same bill, which had been written by a lobbyist.

What leverage do they use for lobbying, if campaign contributions are off the tables?

Re: EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

#838

Post by int_19h »

fetbaffe wrote: post #750
untog wrote: post #739

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the EU have a problem with wealthy donors? I've heard this criticism levelled against US politicians and it's justified, but in this case I think it might just be sheer ignorance on the part of the EU legislators.

Don’t know how common it is, but it has happened https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_cash_for_influence_scan...

That's outright bribery. Lobbying usually implies that it's legal.

Re: EU approves internet copyright law, including ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

#839

Post by int_19h »

lovich wrote: post #833
sieabah wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's simple, the EU wants it's own internet like China. No more filthy US internet with talk about free speech and fair use.

I see part of your argument, but the internet in the US is by no means full of free speech and fair use. The government has their hands on every major service provider and ISP and has used their power to compel companies to give information or censor data. What's happening here is the EU is seeing every other major power lock down their internet, so why would they leave theirs open which would also allow foreign medd…

US has a huge surveillance (both govt and private) problem, but censorship? Can you give some examples?
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