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Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

nytimes.com

821–830 of 877 posts

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#821

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How they treated other subs is off topic for the question of why FPH was banned. Fact is, they banned it due to brigading and off site harassment etc. Whether you are personally convinced by the evidence kind of doesn't matter. They have no onus to share it all with you anyway. If you were aware of the reasoning behind the ban - that it was because of alleged brigading, and not because of just hateful content, then t…

> How they treated other subs is off topic for the question of why FPH was banned. Fact is, they banned it due to brigading and off site harassment etc. Whether you are personally convinced by the evidence kind of doesn't matter. They have no onus to share it all with you anyway. No evidence was given, so you don't know either. You are correct in that they are free to do as they choose with the website they own, but…

> I'm not at all aware of the details of this but I would like to learn - is this common knowledge?

Yes, see the 3rd FAQ of the announcement post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/39bpam/remov...

> I disagree. srs is infamous for brigading, and this behavior can be easily observed. So, if brigading is grounds for banning, then srs should be banned. If brigading is just one aspect of a complicated formula, then provide some background.

See the 2nd FAQ

> the statement that reddit is not intended to be a place for free speech,

Where did you read that? From the post above, they're trying to carefully balance offsite harassment & free speech and acknowledge that this is hard. Incidentally note that they said it's a change to their management policy, not "haha gotcha we were never free speech". Not that you have or should expect free speech on reddit anyway etc.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#822
post #622
post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if she was a bad leader or not. My big concern is this populist approach to firing people. Enough people don't like a company officer? Cobble a "movement" and generate enough controversy to force them to step down. I think unless they egregiously violate company policy or violate the law or do something which would bring damage to a company it should be up to the company to direct the fate of an officer.…

> Maybe she deserved to be fired, maybe she was a terrible officer. Let the company make that decision. I dont like tho mob rule aspect to her stepping down. Her job was to preside over that mob. And apparently to monetize it. Pissing off that mob means she failed at her job . In addition, not understanding that you are firing a key employee shows a dramatic level of ignorance. Reddit has so few employees that even a…

Yeah NYT trying to make reddit look like a ally of sexism is a new low for them.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How they treated other subs is off topic for the question of why FPH was banned. Fact is, they banned it due to brigading and off site harassment etc. Whether you are personally convinced by the evidence kind of doesn't matter. They have no onus to share it all with you anyway. No evidence was given, so you don't know either. You are correct in that they are free to do as they choose with the website they own, but…

> I'm not at all aware of the details of this but I would like to learn - is this common knowledge? Yes, see the 3rd FAQ of the announcement post: https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/39bpam/remov... > I disagree. srs is infamous for brigading, and this behavior can be easily observed. So, if brigading is grounds for banning, then srs should be banned. If brigading is just one aspect of a complicated formu…

>> I'm not at all aware of the details of this but I would like to learn - is this common knowledge? > Yes, see the 3rd FAQ of the announcement post:

Today we are removing five subreddits that break our reddit rules based on their harassment of individuals. If a subreddit has been banned for harassment, you will see that in the ban notice. The only banned subreddit with more than 5,000 subscribers is r/fatpeoplehate[2].

Harassment vs Brigading: https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/39bpam/remov...

"When we are using the word "harass", we're not talking about "being annoying" or vote manipulation or anything. We're talking about men and women whose lives are being affected and worry for their safety every day, because people from a certain community on reddit have decided to actually threaten them, online and off, every day. When you've had to talk to as many victims of it as we have, you'd understand that a brigade from one subreddit to another is miles away from the harassment we don't want being generated on our site."

"We're talking about men and women whose lives are being affected" Agreed.

"worry for their safety every day" Oh please.

"because people from a certain community on reddit have decided to actually threaten them, online and off, every day." Laughably, transparently false. This sounds like the thruthiness that comes from the minds of MBA's and is accepted (in public discourse) on wall street, but it does go over so well on reddit.

Look, if they want to ban "harassment", which I don't argue that fph was at least in some way, then just state the facts and ban it, it's not so hard. It is the completely unnecessary lying that fired up the outrage, imho. Just say "poking fun at fat people is malicious and we're no longer allowing it. Sorry.", and I don't think there would have been a shitstorm.

>> I disagree. srs is infamous for brigading, and this behavior can be easily observed. So, if brigading is grounds for banning, then srs should be banned. If brigading is just one aspect of a complicated formula, then provide some background.

> See the 2nd FAQ

It is not easy to balance these values, especially as the Internet evolves. We are learning and hopefully improving as we move forward. We want to be open about our involvement: We will ban subreddits that allow their communities to use the subreddit as a platform to harass[1] individuals when moderators don’t take action. We’re banning behavior, not ideas.

That in no way excuses srs. As far as I understand, brigading is explicitly a bannable offense. srs brigades. srs has not been banned. Once again, inconsistentcy & dishonesty leads to mistrust and anger.

>> the statement that reddit is not intended to be a place for free speech,

> Where did you read that? From the post above, they're trying to carefully balance offsite harassment & free speech and acknowledge that this is hard. Incidentally note that they said it's a change to their management policy, not "haha gotcha we were never free speech".

http://www.businessinsider.com/reddit-ceo-ellen-pao-its-not-...

"It's not our site's goal to be a completely free-speech platform. We want to be a safe platform and we want to be a platform that also protects privacy at the same time."

Now, combine that with some of the interesting commentary on "safe spaces" that we see coming out of our institutions of higher learning on a regular basis, and draw your own conclusions as to whether the uprising was based on pure unsubstantiated paranoia or not.

> Not that you have or should expect free speech on reddit anyway etc.

As I said before: force a culture on your users and observe the result. It's certainly the right of reddit's owners, but I don't think they'll like the result. My opinion seems to be fairly consistent with the actions and words of the new (old) management, at least so far.

EDIT: on SRS specifically:

https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/39bpam/remov...

"May I ask why /r/shitredditsays[1] has not been banned despite being caught multiple times sending death threats and doxing, and even admitting to doing these things? I think most people would be placated if there were just some consistency in how the rules are applied."

"Sure. We did not ban SRS because the behavior you're referring to, while definitely falling into our current definition of "harassment," happened long ago. We don't put policy into place in order to retroactively ban backlogged behavior. If their harassment becomes a problem again, we will revisit that decision, but until that happens this is where we're at."

Which is a blatant lie, as everyone knows. Again, if you want to selectively ban subreddits, just do it and say why you are doing it, I really think the backlash would be relatively minor, why the compulsive lying?

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#824

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not at all aware of the details of this but I would like to learn - is this common knowledge? Yes, see the 3rd FAQ of the announcement post: https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/39bpam/remov... > I disagree. srs is infamous for brigading, and this behavior can be easily observed. So, if brigading is grounds for banning, then srs should be banned. If brigading is just one aspect of a complicated formu…

>> I'm not at all aware of the details of this but I would like to learn - is this common knowledge? > Yes, see the 3rd FAQ of the announcement post: Today we are removing five subreddits that break our reddit rules based on their harassment of individuals. If a subreddit has been banned for harassment, you will see that in the ban notice. The only banned subreddit with more than 5,000 subscribers is r/fatpeoplehate[…

So when I said FAQ I was referring to the FAQ links at the bottom, which deal explicitly with SRS (see also https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3cxedn/i_am_steve_huf...) and with brigading vs harassment. By FAQ I did not mean "paragraph".

> Which is a blatant lie, as everyone knows.

I don't know that, and upon further inspection it is not obviously a lie, and is actually pretty reasonable. How did you determine that everyone knows this?

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#825

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I'm not at all aware of the details of this but I would like to learn - is this common knowledge? > Yes, see the 3rd FAQ of the announcement post: Today we are removing five subreddits that break our reddit rules based on their harassment of individuals. If a subreddit has been banned for harassment, you will see that in the ban notice. The only banned subreddit with more than 5,000 subscribers is r/fatpeoplehate[…

So when I said FAQ I was referring to the FAQ links at the bottom, which deal explicitly with SRS (see also https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3cxedn/i_am_steve_huf... ) and with brigading vs harassment. By FAQ I did not mean "paragraph". > Which is a blatant lie, as everyone knows. I don't know that, and upon further inspection it is not obviously a lie, and is actually pretty reasonable. How did you determine t…

Sorry I misunderstood your references, makes a more sense now, but I still disagree for the reasons stated in the edit above.

> I don't know that, and upon further inspection it is not obviously a lie, so there must be something wrong with your ability to deduce things if you feel that everyone knows that.

Once a conversation reaches the point of pedantry it's generally a good idea to just stop.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#826

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather have appalling speech than censored speech. The idea is to not confuse supporting a person's free speech with endorsing his views. Also, reddit is a private company and so is not obliged to provide a platform for anyone's free speech, that also is a facet of freedom.

Free speech is between you and the government. If a company that runs a forum says it bans people for abusive comments there's nothing to do with free speech. We see with Reddit that the ugliest users are the ones that are the loudest and drown out everyone else.

I see this glib line often (that free speech is only about the government), but I don't think it's right. It's true that the First Amendment specifically requires the US government to respect free speech. But that doesn't mean the general principle applies only to the government.

For example, John Stuart Mill's utilitarian defense of free speech in On Liberty is equally applicable to private parties and specifically says society and individual people should be open to expression of views they find abhorrent. He specifically covers widespread social ostracism as well as government laws. According to Mill, free speech is definitely not just about freedom from government restrictions.

I doubt you understand the principles of free speech better than John Stuart Mill. Or if you understand his argument in On Liberty and disagree, please explain why.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#827

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I'm not at all aware of the details of this but I would like to learn - is this common knowledge? > Yes, see the 3rd FAQ of the announcement post: Today we are removing five subreddits that break our reddit rules based on their harassment of individuals. If a subreddit has been banned for harassment, you will see that in the ban notice. The only banned subreddit with more than 5,000 subscribers is r/fatpeoplehate[…

So when I said FAQ I was referring to the FAQ links at the bottom, which deal explicitly with SRS (see also https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3cxedn/i_am_steve_huf... ) and with brigading vs harassment. By FAQ I did not mean "paragraph". > Which is a blatant lie, as everyone knows. I don't know that, and upon further inspection it is not obviously a lie, and is actually pretty reasonable. How did you determine t…

Relevant:

https://www.reddit.com/r/NoParticipation/wiki/intro

Then go here and click some links - notice anything?

https://www.reddit.com/r/shitredditsays

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#828
post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I saw more racism on reddit in a couple few weeks (while the police shootings were in the news) than I've seen in the rest of my life combined. Welcome to reality outside the Silicon Valley distortion bubble--Reddit's userbase is not confined to the Mandarins of technology.

Silicon Valley might not be representative of the nation or the world, but (thankfully!) anonymous internet forums aren't, either.

If they were, we'd be in the final years of the Ron Paul administration.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#829
post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling her "Chairman Pao" is racist, but moreso, reductive.

yes only those of Chinese decent are compared to Mao. https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0SO8xk4b...

calling obama a monkey is different from calling george w. bush a monkey regardless of intention.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#830

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given the amount of stuff I've seen in the last year against various people in the games industry in other places, some of that organized on Reddit, I'm happy to see something done. I'm not. I'd prefer all of the communities stay on a site like reddit, where specific users get banned for clear violations of harassment rules, rather than the entire communities getting shut down because of the actions of a few. Most…

> This is going to make the Internet a worse place in general for all of us. How? Wouldn't that make it a better place, because you won't even know that they exist. Unless you looked, anyway.

They don't stay confined to their community. They use it as a communications hub to harass from.
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