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Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

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Re: Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

#821

Post by wrsh07 »

sealeck wrote: post #772
semiquaver wrote: post #739

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IP infringement is not theft . There’s a whole “you wouldn’t download a car” meme about this. Intellectual property has always been a made up idea that has been abused for years by big companies far in excess of its societal value. I’m not sad that the force of IP restrictions seems to be weakening, but I am surprised to see so many people in tech that previously were pretty lassez faire on IP to suddenly take it so…

I think this comment is quite disingenous -- it's like if there's a rule that says "nobody can walk on the grass" that you object to because you'd like to have a picnic with some friends; your claim is that if someone gets out a bulldozer and drives it across the lawn to make a parking lot followed by an army of lawyers that anyone who wanted to picnic is objecting purely because it's a convenient way to criticise th…

These examples don't really add up to me.

You can continue to enjoy the books and articles etc

They are just also used to create a new thing

In the picnic example, the picnickers can't use the lawn anymore.

As an aside: as somebody who lives in a dense area, I also would stay off the lawn. There's a utilitarian element where you have to rotate which lawns are used, and avoid using them when wet etc so as to maximize their utility. The picnickers should find a lawn that's open.

Re: Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

#822

Post by FireBeyond »

throwaway94949 wrote: post #734
Aurornis wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gets even worse. The person not only kept the laptop and used an exploit to download confidential Apple documents, they bragged about it to a contact who was still working at Apple who was also feeding him information: > Liu allegedly kept an Apple-issued laptop after departing the company and exploited a vulnerability to download dozens of confidential Apple documents while he was working at OpenAI. He also maint…

> This is how you behave when you think you're so much smarter than everyone around you that consequences don't apply to you. Found out I already had a bank account with €2000 balance in my name. Temptation was high to take over the account and withdraw the cash. Fortunately didn't touch a dime. Long story short, my identity got stolen, account was used to collect eBay scam money and cash out from ATMs. I was a suspe…

Italy, and beyond... the lobbying that has been done to make identity theft and associated fraud primarily a crime against the institution/business and not you, and the associated implications that you somehow "lost" your identity or failed to protect it (versus the reality, one of those businesses that required that information failed to safeguard it properly) is one of the biggest scams of modern day consumerism.

When I was in the process of buying my home, with perfectly horrible timing something showed up on my credit report, a delinquency and charge off from Verizon of $1,800 or so.

I've never used Verizon. I've been with AT&T for nearly 20 years.

But after calling Verizon to dispute this as identity theft, this is what I learned - that "I" opened a Verizon account at a Walmart in El Paso, and ran up a huge bill calling numbers all around the world.

I live near Seattle. I've been to Texas twice in my life. I was even overseas during part of this alleged activity. I supplied (I shouldn't have to supply all of it, but I did - I needed this resolved because ... mortgage application) police report, travel documents and receipts, hotel overseas, utility bills, AT&T bills.

Verizon's first reply: based on our internal review, we remain satisfied that you are the one responsible for the debt, based on the documentation that was used to open the account.

Me: In that case, I would love to see and be reminded of the documentation I used to open the account, to see if it jogs my memory of some amnesia, apparently.

Verizon: due to customer privacy policy we are unable to show this to you.

Me: "So this documentation is simultaneously enough to prove it really was me, but not enough for you to be satisfied that it may not actually be me and you might be violating some fraudster's identity privacy?"

Basically.

I got it resolved, but it took far too much work.

And all the while, rather than "some company fucked up, and some other company's employee or process didn't catch it", I have to spend hours, and money, demonstrating to some other company that I didn't commit fraud against them, or they can make it impossible for me to buy a house without just paying them the charges someone else incurred.

Re: Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

#823

Post by bigyabai »

overgard wrote: post #810
sunnybeetroot wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Apple is a company built on anti trust violations[1]. Every company that sees it profitable to break the law and pay a fine seems to do it. There are no “good guys”. [1] https://www.theverge.com/apple/659296/apple-failed-complianc...

That doesn't make any of it morally excusable. "The other guy is just as bad!" is an argument for toddlers. The reason why "the other guy is just as bad" is we've removed real consequences from these companies and people. Someone should probably be in prison for the Grok CSAM thing for instance. While we're calling people out, this one is extremely rich: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/meta-ai-...…

This isn't a very great defense, either. Apple started the trend of seeking federal protectionism to avoid liability for market damages. Now OpenAI, with their own federal connections, are going to seek to exert political pressure for a settlement. This is a turnabout-is-fair-play moment in the ugly, lawless Thunderdome arena of modern businesses.

Grok and Meta are non-sequiturs here. Their reputation isn't being put under a microscope - Apple's is. And just looking at Apple's history suing businesses like NSO Group and Corellium doesn't instill much confidence in their ability to protect their IP or exact damages outside of a legal settlement. Up against OpenAI, they'll be forced to fold for all the same reasons they had to throw away their (entirely justified) case against NSO Group.

Re: Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

#824

Post by FireBeyond »

EPWN3D wrote: post #406
jandrewrogers wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn’t a dog whistle. The US actually does have a high-trust society compared to most of the world. Petty theft, snatching, pickpockets, scams, etc are relatively uncommon compared to e.g. many popular places in Europe. Americans are famously vulnerable to it when traveling because it isn’t really part of their domestic threat environment. In many areas, Americans don’t bother to lock anything. You can leave stuff…

It really depends on the type of trust you're talking about. You're right that in many places in the US, people generally act honestly. But that's not always true -- porch pirates are still a huge problem in cities, for example. Policy-wise, I would not describe the US as "high trust" relative to the rest of the first world. Virtually all of our non-senior welfare programs are means-tested or require some proof of vi…

> But that's not always true -- porch pirates are still a huge problem in cities, for example.

I mean, a huge problem in suburbs and more quiet rural areas too, where porch pirates might in theory stand out more, but also have a lot less through traffic to observe their efforts.

Re: Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

#825

Post by overgard »

bigyabai wrote: post #823
overgard wrote: post #810

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't make any of it morally excusable. "The other guy is just as bad!" is an argument for toddlers. The reason why "the other guy is just as bad" is we've removed real consequences from these companies and people. Someone should probably be in prison for the Grok CSAM thing for instance. While we're calling people out, this one is extremely rich: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/meta-ai-...…

This isn't a very great defense, either. Apple started the trend of seeking federal protectionism to avoid liability for market damages. Now OpenAI, with their own federal connections, are going to seek to exert political pressure for a settlement. This is a turnabout-is-fair-play moment in the ugly, lawless Thunderdome arena of modern businesses. Grok and Meta are non-sequiturs here. Their reputation isn't being put…

I think you're incorrect here, what's being put under the microscope is not Apple, it's OpenAI and as a consequence a large swath of the AI industry. (It's the same people moving between the same companies -- probably similar ethics at all these places)

They absolutely deserve to be under a microscope.

Re: Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

#826

Post by LPisGood »

SXX wrote: post #337
decimalenough wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're earning $100k in Silicon Valley, your expenses will swallow up almost all of that. A sudden $100k windfall, on the other hand, tax free and suitably invested,will let you live for years quite comfortably in many poor countries.

Sorry to disappoint you, but no you cannot live "comfortably" in "poor countries" for $100,000 for "years". Well, unless you mean like two years. I lived across South East Asia for more than decade and now live here full time. I have to live on around $20,000 / year most of the time since starting my company. And I do not live anywhere close to what average US / EU citizen will call "comfortable" let alone people fro…

50,000 post tax is enough to live well in most US cities, let alone the rest of the country.

Re: Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

#828

Post by bigyabai »

overgard wrote: post #825
bigyabai wrote: post #823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a very great defense, either. Apple started the trend of seeking federal protectionism to avoid liability for market damages. Now OpenAI, with their own federal connections, are going to seek to exert political pressure for a settlement. This is a turnabout-is-fair-play moment in the ugly, lawless Thunderdome arena of modern businesses. Grok and Meta are non-sequiturs here. Their reputation isn't being put…

I think you're incorrect here, what's being put under the microscope is not Apple, it's OpenAI and as a consequence a large swath of the AI industry. (It's the same people moving between the same companies -- probably similar ethics at all these places) They absolutely deserve to be under a microscope.

Sure - again, this is like saying that "NSO Group is under the microscope" - which they were!

But Apple lacks the political intuition to take NSO Group down. Apple is reliant on the US Federal government, which in-turn is deeply reliant on both NSO Group and Apple. It made all the sense in the world to force the companies to settle, even if it was an absolutely gross miscarriage of justice. We're going to see the same thing happen here; OpenAI will cry foul to the feds, who will inevitably determine that they can't let their investments pickpocket one another. Mr. Trump will send a very strongly-worded voicemail to Sam and Tim, asking them to make amends or face limited federal support in their future ambitions. Both of them will likely settle out-of-court and then announce a partnership to bury the hatchet.

It will be gross, unfair and likely cause irreparable market harm. In other words, forcing Apple to abandon their lawsuit is nothing that the fed hasn't done before.

Re: Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

#829

Post by overgard »

nrmitchi wrote: post #759
ozgung wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a mandatory first thing for any engineer is to learn, understand and commit for life to the Ethics of their profession. It's a shame all these very picky recruitment processes and 'culture' of these giant companies didn't care about ethics and morality. Relevant articles in IEEE Code of Ethics: 3. to avoid real or perceived conflicts of interest whenever possible, and to disclose them to affected parties when…

Software people want to be “engineers” when it’s prestigious and (financially) beneficial, but avoid the actual classification when it comes with industry standards of behaviour.

Not me, at this point I would be perfectly happy with a licensing board.

Re: Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

#830

Post by shimman »

semiquaver wrote: post #739
jtfrench wrote: post #339

Until the industry addresses the Original Sin of Generative AI (and the ascendance of Thievery Corporations), we should expect more and more of this. So far, theft has been rewarded. As long as you make enough money, people seem to be okay with ignoring long-lasting impacts of intellectual theft. As long as you become King of the Cannibals, it seems many are happy to remember you as King and not as the Cannibal.

IP infringement is not theft . There’s a whole “you wouldn’t download a car” meme about this. Intellectual property has always been a made up idea that has been abused for years by big companies far in excess of its societal value. I’m not sad that the force of IP restrictions seems to be weakening, but I am surprised to see so many people in tech that previously were pretty lassez faire on IP to suddenly take it so…

Because the AI companies also stole from things society values extremely high: artists, workers, children, and humans.

I don't really care about IP for the exact same reasons you say, but what I hate even more are rich elites thinking they can continue stealing massively from the commoners unabated.

We just spent the last 15 years seeing big tech literally making society worse, and I think people are finally fed up with the results.

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