Live data from Hacker News

Today I've made the difficult decision to reduce the size of Coinbase by ~14%

twitter.com

821–830 of 842 posts

Re: Today I've made the difficult decision to reduce the size of Coinbase by ~14%

#821
post #800

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do check, of course. As you can see from the comment you replied to, progress updates aren’t the only reason for 1:1s. But as far as updates go, questions are almost always needed, and face-to-face conversations are faster & easier for both parties, which is why we do a little bit of it each week. We cancel 1:1s when they’re not needed, and cut them short when we’re out of topics. Why do you assume not talking by d…

what you are describing is a team meeting. Yes, have them. Once a week. I will again say that most 1:1s are BigTech cargocult rituals where you talk about your path to the "next level" or "how are you feeling this week" but it's also a lot of project management and busywork that mainly exists because the manager is in the picture. Without so many managers most of those self-sustained meetings would go away.

What I’m describing is my 1:1s. I’m describing my experience, from a management perspective. You’re describing your experience from a non-management perspective, and I’m not arguing with your experience, but your claims about other people’s experience, speculation about how many, and assumptions about why, are problematic. Some management isn’t good, that is true. Sometimes there are too many meetings. That is also true, those things sometimes happen. I’m at a ‘BigTech’ company, and the meeting rate and quality of management is not consistent or uniform company wide, it’s something you’d have to evaluate on a case by case basis; One problem with your argument is that right level of meetings is more than a lot of devs want, and just because you don’t know what management does does not mean that meetings aren’t effective. With several decades of experience, I have seen lots and lots of programmers who writhe against budgets and oversight and communication, arguing fiercely that it’s all useless and would people just leave them alone to write code. And my experience is watching some of those people go off the rails when left to their own devices. Once you start managing, or try to run your own company, you might start to see more value in communication. My own views on management absolutely changed over time; when I was young, I was speaking about it similar to how you are.

Re: Today I've made the difficult decision to reduce the size of Coinbase by ~14%

#822
post #808

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure this framing is accurate. Companies have always had management. All large organizations have layered management; the Catholic Church has had layered management for two thousand years; your government has layered management; all militaries have layered management; Bell Telephone and Standard Oil had layered management for a hundred years before computers in business were a thing. This is purely a function…

I think what we are arguing is that yes management layers always existed. But the state right now is that: - those management layers are now more disconnected than ever from the actual work. Most managers are career managers that have given up on any actual technical work. Even if they used to be technical ICs, most bigtech actively discourage managers to do anything remotely technical. I still cannot understand this…

No, I think this still this isn’t an accurate framing of history. Managers have always had a completely different job than the people they manage. If anything, having a lot of managers that are in the trenches, writing code for example, is the newer trend. Since the Industrial Revolution, managers typically oversaw work but did not do the labor. You could ask some managers what they do all day, but once you get some management experience, you will start to understand what managers do all day and how there’s enough to do that getting technical work done is relatively difficult, and might compromise their ability to manage well.

Here are some pointers to the evolution of management over time that you might find interesting or enlightening:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Fayol#Functions_of_manag...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_management

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Drucker

The typical ratio of managers to laborers has definitely increased over time. 1:5 is higher than average, but 1:10 is very common for knowledge work. There are many reasons why this is, team building incentives are only one of many. But one question you should ask yourself is why you even care. Companies are free to function any way they want to, and they pay you to contribute to their choice of structure. Given that all modern large companies function this way, and also make money, maybe it’s worth starting from the assumption that it evolved this way for a reason? See Chesterton’s Fence.

Re: Today I've made the difficult decision to reduce the size of Coinbase by ~14%

#823

Brian once came to Hacker News to comment on a thread I posted (about being made an offer then ghosted by Stripe for a leadership position), so if he has the time for that I'd love to see him here talking about the non-technical teams thing. Could be an interesting discussion.

Could you link the post?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29387264

Re: Today I've made the difficult decision to reduce the size of Coinbase by ~14%

#824
post #822

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what we are arguing is that yes management layers always existed. But the state right now is that: - those management layers are now more disconnected than ever from the actual work. Most managers are career managers that have given up on any actual technical work. Even if they used to be technical ICs, most bigtech actively discourage managers to do anything remotely technical. I still cannot understand this…

No, I think this still this isn’t an accurate framing of history. Managers have always had a completely different job than the people they manage. If anything, having a lot of managers that are in the trenches, writing code for example, is the newer trend. Since the Industrial Revolution, managers typically oversaw work but did not do the labor. You could ask some managers what they do all day, but once you get some…

>> Since the Industrial Revolution, managers typically oversaw work but did not do the labor. You could ask some managers what they do all day, but once you get some management experience, you will start to understand what managers do all day and how there’s enough to do that getting technical work done is relatively difficult, and might compromise their ability to manage well.

Oh believe me. I have managed a lot over my career. Sometime as a TLM and a couple times as a full time manager. I was still as technical and did as much as most people on my team though, which is against what most bigTech companies would consider acceptable for a manager.

All my opinions come from everything I saw and lived during my time as a manager.

I will repeat it again: I'm sure you are not slacking as a manager, most managers I worked with did not slack either. It is simply an artificial function with self-fulfilled busywork. The reason it still exists today is that the managerial class holds the power in most companies and self-hire each other as a way to keep themselves relevant.

A ton has been written about this, so I will put some links:

"Yet for all its dysfunction, the professional-managerial system proved remarkably durable. It persisted because it solved a different problem than organizational effectiveness: it provided a way to allocate status and opportunity that appeared meritocratic while actually favoring those who could navigate institutional prestige hierarchies."

https://eyeofthesquid.com/the-last-days-of-the-managerial-cl...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional%E2%80%93manageria...

Re: Today I've made the difficult decision to reduce the size of Coinbase by ~14%

#825
post #822

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I think this still this isn’t an accurate framing of history. Managers have always had a completely different job than the people they manage. If anything, having a lot of managers that are in the trenches, writing code for example, is the newer trend. Since the Industrial Revolution, managers typically oversaw work but did not do the labor. You could ask some managers what they do all day, but once you get some…

>> Since the Industrial Revolution, managers typically oversaw work but did not do the labor. You could ask some managers what they do all day, but once you get some management experience, you will start to understand what managers do all day and how there’s enough to do that getting technical work done is relatively difficult, and might compromise their ability to manage well. Oh believe me. I have managed a lot ove…

> I have managed a lot over my career

Ah, I do sincerely apologize for making assumptions!

Discussions of history aside - I don’t think your opinion of management, as summarized as an “artificial function with self-fulfilled busywork” is entirely wrong so much as perhaps jaded, pessimistic, or a bit biased. There is a seed of truth there, and you’re right that this has been written about before, and it’s not a new opinion. But it’s also negative and incomplete, it intentionally ignores evidence, and it lacks explanatory power.

If management is useless and self-fulfilling and absorbing money, then why in a competitive capitalist environment can you not find large companies anywhere in the world without it? Or in any economic system that exists, for that matter? Surely if true, then someone else with your opinion can start a company and it would be wildly successful compared to the economic drag of the artificial and self-fulfilling professional managerial class. Why haven’t you started such a company? Why hasn’t anyone else? This is an important question to answer if you want to insist that management doesn’t serve a necessary and functional purpose; “remarkably durable” is a funny expression to use for something that has always existed, by design, from the start, and for which there are practically no counter-examples.

There are a very small handful of companies that claim little to no management roles, except that they still talk about managing and self-organizing and letting people define their roles, so managers emerge. They might claim no management and then still let the good talkers do the prioritizing and organizing and reporting and delegating, just like everywhere else. It might be the same as advertising unlimited vacation; the label sounds amazing while the reality is no different. It looks like the majority of such companies are software companies and have less than 1k employees (which suggests tech companies may be pushing more on reducing management than other sectors). When I searched, Gore came up as one example of a company with more than 10k employees that doesn’t use traditional management, and yet when I go look at their job postings, the very first page has roles like “president” and “manager” and “team leader”.

I’m not making any claims about “most”. TBH, I would actually agree with you, I assume. Most management is pretty bad, and many people are self-serving. Same goes for programmers, let’s not forget; many programmers are just as lazy and self-serving as the bad managers you’ve seen. Sturgeon’s Law is alive and well.

The PMC article kinda nails it - the term and the idea is a spin on Marx, and Marx wasn’t complaining that management is useless, he was just complaining that management kept all the ownership & profits.

Re: Today I've made the difficult decision to reduce the size of Coinbase by ~14%

#826
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between the "thanks" email and the "loser" email is that the second one is intentionally disrespectful. I'm not convinced a polite but AI-written email hits the same note. At the very least it's unintentionally disrespectful, which isn't a direct challenge. Your boss doesn't care enough to write an email by hand, but also doesn't care enough to burn bridges and insult you.

So it isn't disrespectful, and neither is it respectful. A perfect nothing, not a thought or care involved. Like a 1-click eCard mailer.

[deleted]

Re: Today I've made the difficult decision to reduce the size of Coinbase by ~14%

#827

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it isn't disrespectful, and neither is it respectful. A perfect nothing, not a thought or care involved. Like a 1-click eCard mailer.

Genuine question. Let's say you are bad with words. If you ask AI to generate hundred different paragraphs and choose the one which best conveys what you actually feel and want to communicate. Is it is still a perfect nothing?

It's further north of nothing.

It's a little less than if you got up and stood in the convenience store to pick 1 of 12 "Get Well!" cards. That's a few meaningful steps up (literally) from the 1-click eCard. The output will be a bit better for it, but more importantly, it shows more that interaction mattered for you.

The effort is meaningfully part of the output. I think many would still prefer if you scratched a couple non-perfect words yourself. I know I would. Those words are You, and if you're in a place to send me a card, what matters is that you showed up and offered Your words. The language and the card are transfer media.

In the same way....... you could go the opposite extra mile to make a very elaborate "you suck, here's your severance, loser!" message that would tip towards disrespectful :p

Re: Today I've made the difficult decision to reduce the size of Coinbase by ~14%

#828
post #498
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're getting laid off, the only thing that really matters is the severance package. I don't think this is true. Humans typically prefer "thanks for the hard work, here's your severance" to "you suck, here's your severance, loser." Humans like being treated with respect, and words are a big part of that. Money is nice, but it's not the only thing we care about.

Words are fake, money is real.

Noted. Handing bro a cool $20 instead when he asks me to dial 911

Re: Today I've made the difficult decision to reduce the size of Coinbase by ~14%

#829
post #319
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're getting laid off, the only thing that really matters is the severance package. I don't think this is true. Humans typically prefer "thanks for the hard work, here's your severance" to "you suck, here's your severance, loser." Humans like being treated with respect, and words are a big part of that. Money is nice, but it's not the only thing we care about.

The difference between the "thanks" email and the "loser" email is that the second one is intentionally disrespectful. I'm not convinced a polite but AI-written email hits the same note. At the very least it's unintentionally disrespectful, which isn't a direct challenge. Your boss doesn't care enough to write an email by hand, but also doesn't care enough to burn bridges and insult you.

I don't understand — I use AI to write email particularly _because_ I care about the recipient, and am confident the resulting email will more eloquently and accurately express my feelings. I'll also often edit it afterwards to ensure it's in my voice. Regardless, I don't think it's fair to presume that my boss doesn't case because an LLM generated the email.

^ This was written 100% by hand. Let's have Claude proofread it and make any suggestions:

I'd argue the opposite — I reach for AI because I care about the recipient. It helps me express my thoughts more precisely and eloquently than I might off the cuff, and I'll often edit the result to make sure it sounds like me.

Presuming that an LLM-assisted email signals indifference seems like a category error. The care is in what you're trying to communicate, not which tool you used to get there. -- https://claude.ai/share/3d3d1a78-381c-4fcf-9354-69b10f2d6f4a

Re: Today I've made the difficult decision to reduce the size of Coinbase by ~14%

#830
post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is possible to move most of that discussion to required but intentional async communication.

Personally, I think it's good to have at least occasional 1:1s because a lot comes out informally. That said my "weekly" 1:1s with a fairly long-term manager mostly turned into more or less monthlies because we both traveled so much.

Is there any chance you made a typo in this comment? I'm not sure why your manager being long-term would result in less frequent one-on-ones...
Post reply on HN