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IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

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Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#821

Post by azornathogron »

bawolff wrote: post #674
LightBug1 wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tens of millions protested the US response. Today they still spit to the side when having to say the name George Bush or Tony Blair, among others. You either weren't there, have a bad memory, are watching typically mainstream new sources, or are willfully ignoring the voices that are having that conversation today. Many of the ills today can be traced back to powers grabbed at the time to assist that so-called "war o…

I was alive at the time. While there were some protests, i dont recall them being all that significant, and many of the objecting voices seemed more concerned with the price tag rather than the human cost.

You might be referring to a different period, but I'll note that the anti-war protests in early 2003 (immediately before the invasion of Iraq) were quite literally record breaking.

https://web.archive.org/web/20040904214302/http://www.guinne...

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#822

Post by jalapenos »

bawolff wrote: post #695
apexalpha wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very thorough. Thanks for the direct link. The case seems pretty clear, especially since the soldiers tried to hide all evidence.

I think the only defense here would be if the soldiers came up with some reasonable explanation of why they thought the vehicles were hostile. Its kind of hard to imagine, especially with shooting the follow up vehicles, but motive seems like the only unclear part where there is any potential for a defense. One part that is really confusing, is if they knowingly intentionally targeted the ambulance because they thoug…

Maybe it's like a kind of brag?

Like, it the monsters massacre people and no one's left to report on how awful it was then they kind of "lose the gloat value" to a degree?

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#823

Post by tdeck »

neoromantique wrote: post #307
wayeq wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If genocide were the goal this war would have lasted one day. You can't infer intent that way. Nuking Gaza isn't free, it would introduce an existential threat to Israel. They are toeing a dangerous line already, and using WMDs would align other countries against them really quickly. Putin isn't avoiding using nukes on Ukraine because he's a nice guy.

Why does israel use expensive precise munitions wherever possible rather than their stockpiles of much more deadly "dumb" ones?

Expensive for whom? US taxpayers?

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#824

Post by Manuel_D »

KingMob wrote: post #702
xdennis wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honest question. Why should they surrender? To save the people they claim to protect. Just like in WW2, had the Germans and the Japanese surrendered earlier, the Allies wouldn't have had to kill so many of them.

That same logic applies in reverse, though, so it can't be the answer. If the Allies surrendered to the Axis, it would have also saved lives.

No? Hitler explicitly laid out a plan to expel and starve much of Eastern Europe.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#825

Post by tuwtuwtuwtuw »

mbix77 wrote: post #782

Accountability has gone out of the window a long time. The only way it will come back is when the people fight back.

Many of us are waiting for the people in the US to start taking their responsibility seriously.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#826

Post by n4r9 »

LightBug1 wrote: post #493
aucisson_masque wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well they still have the full support of the usa government, and I'm pretty sure that even democrats would still keep supporting Israel. So what did they really lost? Do they even care that some Europeans don't like them ? Europeans are not the one who sell them 99% of their weapons.

It's notable that the US right wing have turned against Israel. Witness Tucker Carlson dismantling Huckabee, and Zionist ideology, recently. Where it ends up, no one knows. But this is different.

Carlson has never been that strongly pro-Israel as I understand it. He's carefully toed a line that maintains a solid right-wing fanbase. See e.g. this [0] from 2012 and this [1] from 2019.

[0] https://www.politico.com/media/story/2012/01/tucker-carlson-...

[1] https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/archbishop-pelosi-says-walls...

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#827

Post by ceejayoz »

dash2 wrote: post #776
tsimionescu wrote: post #750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gaza is in ruins because it attacked Israel. Gaza has been under Israeli occupation for 50+ years. It didn't "attack Israel", it attacked its occupiers, it is an occupied part of Israel itself, de facto. > As to the Israeli policy in the west bank I generally do not support it but it's mostly only tangentially related. It is much more than tangentially related. It shows that the Hamas attacks was mostly just a pret…

If you are seriously claiming the attack on Gaza was not a reaction to October 7, you need to explain why Gaza was not attacked in the 20 years prior to Oct 7, but was attacked shortly after it. If you think that Israel always intended to occupy Gaza, you also need to explain why they withdrew from it in 2003.

> you need to explain why Gaza was not attacked in the 20 years prior to Oct 7

Is this a joke?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_(2008%E2%80%932009)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_2012_Gaza%E2%80%93Israel...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Gaza_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2018_Gaza%E2%80%93Isr...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_2019_Gaza%E2%80%93Israel_c...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2019_Gaza%E2%80%93Isr...

(and another dozen or so in the list on Wikipedia)

> If you think that Israel always intended to occupy Gaza, you also need to explain why they withdrew from it in 2003.

I would note that the current PM of Israel resigned in protest when that happened.

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/07/international/middleeast/...

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#828

Post by helpfulmandrill »

yoavm wrote: post #765
karim79 wrote: post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually got accused of being racist for saying that anti-zionism and anti-semitism are not the same thing.

I know Zionism as the idea that Jewish people have the right to self-determination. Do you: 1 - Think that it is something different? 2 - Think that it is, but Jewish people specifically do not have it? (I believe this is racist) 3 - Think that no people have it? 4 - Something else? If you think that Jewish people have it but just not in Palestine, where in the world do you think they should have had it?

If self-determination means an enthnostate then no people has that right. If every ethnic group had its own state in which it was guaranteed supremacy, the world would be a complete mess. It doesn't work. We are seeing in Israel/Palestine a thoroughly worked out example of why it doesn't work, and what the consequences are when you try to make it work.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#829

Post by cutemonster »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #763
iberator wrote: post #264

My stance is Mossad reading: - Likud is an evil political party - Natanyahu is a wanted war criminal - IDF committed many atrocities - Hamas was insane to think that Bibi would NOT BOMB the Gaza in retaliation. - Hamas was the first to cast the stone. - Israel ALWAYS gonna retaliate with non proportional force when it comes to security of its citizens.

> Israel ALWAYS gonna retaliate with non proportional force when it comes to security of its citizens. This is the logic of conflicts in the middle east and many or probably most parts of the world. If you don't retaliate hard and defend yourself thoroughly, it is seen as weakness. Not much more sophisticated than how bullying works.

Sounds as if you're defending genocide style killing civilians.

Re: IDF killed Gaza aid workers at point blank range in 2025 massacre: Report

#830

Post by Parae »

yoavm wrote: post #768
postsantum wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of Tiananmen square in regard to how stubbornly westerners insist that NOTHING happened in Gaza before 7/23

The point isn't that nothing happened, it is that nothing _that justifies_ the attack happened.

It was the point.

> - Hamas was the first to cast the stone.

Saying that it was Hamas who casted the first stone on 7 oct, is basically saying nothing happened before. Which is plain wrong. It's the consequence of decades of oppression, crimes, and unstopping massacre from the colonial occupier.

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