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The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

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Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#821

Post by crystal_revenge »

iugtmkbdfil834 wrote: post #611
crystal_revenge wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many of our child-free friends are going to go through a lot of loneliness when they're old I've seen this "kids are insurance against loneliness" logic repeated often, but I don't believe this bares out in reality. I personally know plenty of child-free older couples who remain quite happy and social. I also know plenty of parents whose kids don't speak to them anymore or whose children have lives on the other sid…

You can absolutely think it as long as it stops there. There is a reason. At that point in the game, your needs and wants are supposed to be subordinate to those of the kids' long term survival. I could maybe understand this sentiment, oh 50 years ago, when you maybe could plausibly claim you had no idea that child rearing is not exactly easy, but unless a person is almost completely detached from society, it is near…

This is a hilariously narrow view of family life.

Life is a lot more complicated and there's essentially limitless possibility between living a life you feel is solely about "paying consequences" or "completely abandoning all responsibility" (which, btw, is still an option. Not great, but neither is the former)

But I do appreciate you providing an object lesson in just how taboo it is to even entertain the thought publicly!

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#822

Post by jvandreae »

Johanx64 wrote: post #716
program_whiz wrote: post #703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just want to chime in, for anyone else reading this: I can say I used to think this way. Having kids is 100% the best thing, would never trade them for anything, including all of the above and a 5x raise and early retirement. Absolutely nothing about single life is even close to the value you feel having a child. Of course this is "anecdata" but so is "the single life is so awesome" given most of the stats about ment…

> once you get bored of mindless work/consumption cycle, go ahead and get to the good part! The good part is spawning another entity which has to slog through mindless work and consumption cycle, (experience the misery of aging, wither and die) - just so you can feel good about yourself? You acknowledge the stats about mental health and loneliness and how prevalent that is, and yet you will roll a dice on (other pers…

> The good part is spawning another entity which has to slog through mindless work and consumption cycle, (experience the misery of aging, wither and die) - just so you can feel good about yourself?

The future belongs to those who show up. I do wonder what percentage of antinatalism is simply mate/fertility suppression. The rest being "mad at God for the crime of being", of course.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#823

Post by Aurornis »

scottious wrote: post #475
Aurornis wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile, the curb is full of extra large SUVs idling with kids just waiting inside the cars Anecdotally, when my work schedule was wonky for a while I would do the same with my kids. Those few extra minutes hanging out with them in the morning were something I valued a lot. We got to talk and relax a little bit after the rush of getting ready in the morning. They had all day to spend with their classmates so a fe…

I am friends with a lot of other parents already. I do go out of my way to make friends. I already organize bike trips to the museum and stuff like that. I'm a very social person. What I'm saying is that there are a lot of forces keeping people solitary and anti-social. This is just one of them. I know for a fact that some of these families waiting in their SUVs live a short walk from the school. Yet still they choos…

> I know for a fact that some of these families waiting in their SUVs live a short walk from the school. Yet still they choose to isolate themselves.

Early morning in the narrow time between getting the kids ready and going into work is not the time to expect people to be social.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#824

Post by throaway1998 »

JPKab wrote: post #341
qweiopqweiop wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point. I'd argue though, is it a utopia if we're not as happy?

We are unhappy BECAUSE it's a utopia, and our brains evolved in a landscape that was ALWAYS trying to kill us. Like an immune system in an overly clean environment starts attacking inert things and creates allergies, our minds have created threats and focused on "relative" scarcity over actual scarcity. Instead of "How am I going to get enough calories to survive this week?" it's "Why does that guy get to be in a pri…

No, its because its obviously a utopia meant for all which is only one for some (those who are hoarding resources)

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#825

Post by snowwrestler »

K0balt wrote: post #820

Population decline is disastrous for sprawling developing nations like the United states. It’s bad for fully developed nations as well, but it’s cyanide for developing countries. Infrastructure build out requires a strongly growing population, or it’s just not fundable. For low density countries like the USA, infrastructure is already a disproportionate burden. Population decline will spark a crisis of crumbling regr…

The economics of infrastructure actually improve for stable or shrinking populations because funding can shift from raw capacity buildout (extremely expensive) to maintenance and value-add services (profitable). Observe that the best infrastructure in the world is in nations with slow population growth, like Western Europe, Japan, and more recently the U.S. and China. Whereas nations with very high population growth struggle to deliver capacity for even basic needs like clean water or paved roads.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#826

Post by throaway1998 »

ajross wrote: post #633
Balgair wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only if the mothers in aggregate truly believe that their children will have good lives, then will they have them.

> believe that their children will have good lives Again, no. That's a patronizing abstraction implying you need to convince them of the general value of the activity, and assumes she's doing it all "for the kids" and not for herself. You aren't chasing your dreams for abstract ideas of future children, why should she? I'm saying that a mother needs to know she'll be just as wealthy , in a practical (if not 100% lite…

"The Beggar CEO"

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#827

Post by jvandreae »

scottious wrote: post #315
cco wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't seem to be supported by the data, the "nicer" and richer a country becomes, birth rates drop. And basically the opposite is true for countries with a high birth rate. How do you square those facts with your view here?

However, he specifically said "will want to have children and feel/know that their children's lives will be good ones." But this doesn't necessarily mean being richer. For example, many people are afraid of what unchecked climate change is going to mean for kids born today. No amount of individual or country wealth is going to fix that issue. I have kids myself, but man... I really really worry about this. I do perso…

> unchecked climate change is going to mean for kids born today

No amount of climate change today could compare with the threat of war and famine in the past, and yet they still had kids.

Louise Perry even goes so far as to hypothesize that the distinct lack of threat contributes to low fertility, under the term "mortality salience": https://x.com/Louise_m_perry/status/2014296167262126192

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#829

Post by decafninja »

iugtmkbdfil834 wrote: post #611
crystal_revenge wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many of our child-free friends are going to go through a lot of loneliness when they're old I've seen this "kids are insurance against loneliness" logic repeated often, but I don't believe this bares out in reality. I personally know plenty of child-free older couples who remain quite happy and social. I also know plenty of parents whose kids don't speak to them anymore or whose children have lives on the other sid…

You can absolutely think it as long as it stops there. There is a reason. At that point in the game, your needs and wants are supposed to be subordinate to those of the kids' long term survival. I could maybe understand this sentiment, oh 50 years ago, when you maybe could plausibly claim you had no idea that child rearing is not exactly easy, but unless a person is almost completely detached from society, it is near…

Some of my friends and family who had kids at a young(er) age - and by that, I mean late twenties or early thirties - seemed totally oblivious to the hardships of parenthood.

You’d think by your thirties you’d do some basic research. Most people just have kids because it’s just “what your supposed to do” and don’t give much thought beyond that.

I don’t know what they thought to themselves, but outwardly they projected rainbows and unicorns until reality eventually hit them.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#830

Post by throaway1998 »

compounding_it wrote: post #215
yoyohello13 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like Google, Meta, etc are not only siphoning money from peoples attention. They are siphoning human life force.

If you look at the top companies in America currently by market share, pretty much all are selling addictions while maybe a handful actually selling tangible products.

Opium trade 2.0
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