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Is Mozilla trying hard to kill itself?

infosec.press

821–830 of 851 posts

Re: Is Mozilla trying hard to kill itself?

#821

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The web is unusable without a proper Adblock. It's a privacy nightmare as well. Few people reason how much data they give away to a host of shady companies just by letting ads display.

It's kind of crazy that a popup like "we and our 1244 partners want to share your data to better serve you". That's the kind of dystopian event you would think only visible as caricatural SF, but it's the kind of thing one can actually see on a daily level just browsing around.

They really take the piss, even supposedly essential cookies get lumbered with hundreds of "partners" with "legitimate interests" harvesting your data.

Re: Is Mozilla trying hard to kill itself?

#822
post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they are accurately observing that the "I don't want to do it" and "feels off mission" statements are FAR weaker than they can be and should be. Such weak statements are either a real mistake or show movement away from those principles which should be bedrock for Mozilla and towards some justification to abandon those principles. It's not like the industry has no precedents on this. "Don't Be Evil" was the motto…

> It's not like the industry has no precedents on this. "Don't Be Evil" was the motto of a company that is now one of the apex predators in the surveillance capitalism ecosystem. How is this precedent? "Don't Be Evil" strikes me as extremely explicit. This seems like a counter-example to me.

Yes. The point is that it started out as a wonderfully explicit and expansive statement.

And even THAT explicit and expansive statement was abandoned to the point where the very same company is now a global leader in surveillance capitalism, which is widely considered a massive net-negative for society if not flat-out evil.

So, when a CEO won't even make anything more than wish-washy "I don't want to do it" and "feels off mission" statements, people should be concerned that those weak good intentions will hold up even less well.

Re: Is Mozilla trying hard to kill itself?

#823
post #794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://help.kagi.com/orion/faq/faq.html#other_os_support

I'm aware. What does it change?

It directly addresses your complaint, a confusing complaint to make if you were already aware that Linux and Windows versions are coming soon.

Unless, of course, you're holding out for, I don't know, a BeOS version.

Re: Is Mozilla trying hard to kill itself?

#824

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soooo...there isn't.

If the plaintiff pays 500 million to the judge and the defendant goes to jail, there's no proof that the judge wouldn't have made the same decision without the 500 million. If you're a fool, you'll sneer and ask "Where's the proof?" Why would there be any proof?

Well if you bring up law how about: innocent until proven guilty?

Google is not bribing Mozilla...they probably keep them alive to avoid all kinds of monopoly lawsuits. With their market share however, you would need more prove to justify further conspiracies...

Re: Is Mozilla trying hard to kill itself?

#825

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soooo...there isn't.

Large sums of money are typically how we measure influence in the modern day.

Too bad we're not interested in prove before we're condemning anyone in those modern days...

Re: Is Mozilla trying hard to kill itself?

#826

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incorrect, Raymond Hill authored both extensions, both being forks of HTTP Switchboard. Raymond got overwhelmed with managing an open source project of uBlock's size and let Chris Aljoudi take over. Adblock later purchased it from Chris. Meanwhile, Raymond had forked uBlock, creating uBO, and continued to improve it on his own terms. After seeing what happened with Adblock, he has no intention of selling either uMatr…

I love uMatrix, but all evidence is that they stopped developing it in 2021. https://github.com/gorhill/uMatrix I don't know the implications of that, it's the only tool I've ever found that lets me feel in control of what programs my browser is executing.

I think uMatrix is the better extension. I use it in tandem with uBO.

But yeah, Raymond didn't have the resources to develop both at once and chose uBO which offered a more digestible, install-and-forget experience palatable to a wider audience.

Raymond basically said uMatrix was feature complete. But there could be bugs.

Re: Is Mozilla trying hard to kill itself?

#827

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. I am not remotely misremembering, and I'll thank you not to tell me what's happening in my own head. IE 6 stood stagnant for years , while the W3C moved on without them, and there was no new version. > The something being the other browsers. Chrome and Firefox. And can you name a single thing Firefox does right, that Chrome didn't do first, or that came from an actual accepted web standar…

> and there was no new version. Yes there was… IE 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11. The reason why IE 6 kept haunting us all was because later versions were never available on Windows XP. > actual accepted web standard The only thing for which there is an actual standard that matters is JavaScript itself (or rather ECMAScript) and on that front Apple has pretty much always been a laggard. Saying “Apple is compliant with all of W3C…

> The reason why IE 6 kept haunting us all was because later versions were never available on Windows XP.

First of all, according to the IE Wikipedia page, that's not true—7 & 8 were available for XP.

Second of all, this ignores the fact that for five years, there was only IE6. And IE6 was pretty awful.

> Saying “Apple is compliant with all of W3C standards” is a bit ridiculous when this organization was obsolete long before Microsoft ditched IE. And Apple itself acknowledge that, themselves being one of the founding parties of the organization that effectively superseded W3C (WHATWG).

And now you have identified a major component of the problem: in the 2000s, the W3C was the source of web standards. Safari, once it existed, was pretty good at following them; IE (especially IE6) was not.

Now, there effectively are no new standards except for what the big 3 (Safari, Chrome, and Firefox) all implement. And Firefox effectively never adds new web features themselves; they follow what the other two do.

So when you say "Safari is holding the web back," what you are saying is "Safari is not implementing all the things that Google puts into Chrome." Which is true! And there is some reason to be concerned about it! But it is also vital to acknowledge that Google is a competitor of Apple's, and many of the features they implement in Chrome, whether or not Google has published proposed standards for them, are being implemented unilaterally by Google, not based on any larger agreement with a standards body.

So painting it as if Apple is deliberately refusing to implement features that otherwise have the support of an impartial standards body, in order to cripple the web and push people to build native iOS apps, is, at the very best, poorly supported by evidence.

Re: Is Mozilla trying hard to kill itself?

#828
post #700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now that Google is yanking it Can you elaborate? Are they winding down their their participation in search licensing deals?

Looks like I was a little out of date. https://itsfoss.com/news/mozilla-lifeline-is-safe/ Google pays Mozilla, basically to make Google the default search engine for everything in Firefox. Previously, it looked like an antitrust case was going to force them to stop doing that, but it didn't turn out that way. Mozilla is still getting most of their money from Google and they shouldn't need to kneecap themselves to pay…

I definitely heard there was a risk of that happening, but you're right that it seems not to have materialized. I'm honestly not sure what remedy they landed on or if they are still deliberating but I think a fascinating option that follows precedent would be a pop-up browser picker in Android instead of rolling Chrome as default, as that has precedent in other antitrust cases and could potentially change the market share issue overnight.

Another interesting one would be truly spinning off Chrome, but paying a search licensing fee to them, too. Actually, that's fascinating to consider in this context, because I know that option (spinning off the browser into its own company) has been criticized on the grounds that it would be unrealistic to assume a browser can simply monetize itself. Ironic given the Mozilla criticism.

Re: Is Mozilla trying hard to kill itself?

#829
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They...already do that? They stopped allowing unsigned addons, even if you allow them in about:config (a power-user feature). Even Chrome allows you to toggle the option to do that -- in a more user-friendly way! -- and actually honors it, so I don't think it's the massive security hole everyone claims. Edit: My Hitler parody of when Firefox introduced this (almost 10 years ago now!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=…

Funny. Though, on this line: "The whole point of Firefox is that I can customize it all I want". You realize that with more customization comes more fingerprinting? :-)

Funny.

You realize that you can prevent that? :-)

Re: Is Mozilla trying hard to kill itself?

#830
post #794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware. What does it change?

It directly addresses your complaint, a confusing complaint to make if you were already aware that Linux and Windows versions are coming soon. Unless, of course, you're holding out for, I don't know, a BeOS version.

I just don't think one can seriously say "Orion browser is a thing" if it is definitely not a thing for 95% desktops out there (the exact % may be different depending on the source of data, etc.). And Windows (around 70% of the market share) version is not expected until late 2026.
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