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We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

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Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#821

Post by const_cast »

toasterlovin wrote: post #813
rollcat wrote: post #786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the devices, or the operating systems. RMS didn't see TiVo coming, but TiVo was never the problem: by the time GPL3 was ready, the industry (e.g. AOSP) has mostly moved to MIT/BSD. In the end, none of this mattered. The real problem is that @gmail.com or @icloud.com are now required to participate in society. I'm happy to use an iPhone, it's in my subjective opinion the best device on the market. My concern…

> The real problem is that @gmail.com or @icloud.com are now required to participate in society They absolutely are not, though. I've been fully bought into the Apple ecosystem for nearly 2 decades and have used a Fastmail email address with it for the last decade (when I ditched my MobileMe email address). Similarly, I have never had an @gmail.com email address, though I've used various Google products.

They meant an apple or Google account, not literally the email address.

Try to live without an Apple ID or Google account. Probably about as difficult as living without an ID.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#822

Post by const_cast »

divan wrote: post #431
Aerroon wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>“Hardware I own” sounds like you bought a pan and demand the right to cook any food you want. Because I did. How come I can do what I want with my computer, but not my phone? Why are phones so inferior in this area? My phone is more powerful than many of the computers I've had in the past, yet I need to jump through a million hoops to use it as a software development platform. Why?

Your smartwatch is probably more powerful than some of your past computers too. Same with your DSLR camera. Even your smart fridge. These are specialized hardware+software gadgets designed to a particular purpose, which is very different from being a development platform. Same with a phone.

A smartphone is not a specialized hardware or software, it's a general computation device.

Its just a completely bogus argument. Its not a fucking smart fridge, come on

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#823

Post by const_cast »

tern wrote: post #375
immibis wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it authoritarian to stop other people from being authoritarians?

If I make a product and I don't specifically help you do certain things with it, is that authoritarian? Regardless, we're talking about products here—"authoritarian" is a word reserved to situations where the threat of force is involved. In this specific example, forcing a company to do something is authoritarian (because they will be fined or jailed if they do not comply with the rules). Corporations are not, as a r…

> If I make a product and I don't specifically help you do certain things with it, is that authoritarian?

If were referring to products necessary to function in society, YES! Obviously yes, a big exclaiming yes, yes with no room for debate.

A car, but you can't drive anywhere but to work. Electricity, but you can't use it to listen to radio that criticizes our dear leader. A TV, but you can't use it to watch anything other than military parades.

A phone, but you can only use it to perform government approved actions on government approved software.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#824

Post by inetknght »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #584
the_other wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So let’s treat them like the state owned corporations If they were state owned, we could vote for how the profits get used and we would have larger budgets for healthcare and education.

But if they were, they would never have become what they are in the first place, including the good things. States are neither good at innovation nor dynamism. But they are very good at telling you what you should and should not do. The latter part has some wonderful consequences for consumer or worker protections, but it has some terrible ones for creating new stuff or improving the old.

> But if they were, they would never have become what they are in the first place, including the good things.

Does the good outweigh the bad?

Perhaps in the beginning. Today? Definitely not.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#826

Post by inetknght »

fluoridation wrote: post #312
cyphar wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the smallest nations have the legal right to permanently incarcerate, strip you of your assets or even murder you if you are in their sphere of influence. I would hope you'd agree those are not powers that we should grant to large corporations... I think it's shocking how many people Google can affect through its search algorithms (more than any nation on Earth) and yet there is no democratic system to hold them…

>Even the smallest nations have the legal right to permanently incarcerate, strip you of your assets or even murder you if you are in their sphere of influence. A nation that did that would be able to do that exactly once before everyone decides to never do business with it ever again, which they can afford to do because it's such a small market. Exercising arbitrary power is not the trump card you think it is. Hell,…

> > Even the smallest nations have the legal right to permanently incarcerate, strip you of your assets or even murder you if you are in their sphere of influence.

> A nation that did that would be able to do that exactly once before everyone decides to never do business with it ever again

US CBP and ICE would like a word with you.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#827

Post by const_cast »

charcircuit wrote: post #146
EvanAnderson wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hardware should not be equipped with undefeatable digital locks. Put a physical switch on the hardware (like Chromebooks have-- had?) to allow the owner to opt out of the walled garden. Also worrisome are e-fuses, which allow software to make irrevocable physical changes to your hardware. They shouldn't be allowed to be modified except by the owner. (See Nintendo Switch updates blowing e-fuses to prevent downgrad…

E fuses are needed so people can't downgrade the device to old insecure software to exploit it. Without it or an equivalent like a secure monotonic counter how do you think such attacks be protected?

Is this is a real threat that's actually happening on a scale that matter or moreso a make believe type thing?

Because I can do make believe type arguments all day. We should lock everyone up, because what if a super astroid hits the Earth and only prison is strong enough to protect them??

See, easy, and kind of fun. Doesn't mean much though.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#828

Post by dangus »

mariusor wrote: post #789
dangus wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some other examples of why this could be bad: - Running code on your car that compromises safety, like modifying/disabling legally-required safety features. - Modifying code on health devices, like pacemakers - Protective code involving things like overheating protections (e.g., firmware preventing you from disabling cooling fans in your laptop or running your 3D printer so that it catches fire) - Running devices wit…

Is it necessary to establish the difference between "firmware" and "software"? Most of the use-cases you listed are about modifying devices which do not run "software" per se. Phones, more and more like computers, are becoming general purpose computing devices, which require software to be useful. I think there's a distinction that we need to be aware of.

IMO the distinction between firmware and software is somewhat arbitrary and my answer to your question is “no.”

Something like Tesla’s self driving program really isn’t firmware and fits as an example, especially if it reaches a level where it’s government approved for unattended operation.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#829

Post by inetknght »

maxwelljxyz wrote: post #177
mjevans wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incorrect. Choice 2. Empowered user. The end user is free to CHOOSE to delegate the hardware's approved signing solutions to a third party. Possibly even a third party that is already included in the base firmware such as Microsoft, Apple, OEM, 'Open Source' (sub menu: List of several reputable distros and a choice which might have a big scary message and involved confirmation process to trust the inserted boot media…

I like the way Chromebooks do things, initially locking down the hardware but allowing you to do whatever if you intentionally know what you're doing (after wiping the device for security reasons). It's a pity that there's all the Google tracking in them that's near impossible to delete (unless you remove Chrome OS).

> I like the way Chromebooks do things, initially locking down the hardware but allowing you to do whatever if you intentionally know what you're doing

Did you hear? Google's not allowing "sideloading" (whitewashing the meaning of installing) third party apps by unknown developers.

> after wiping the device for security reasons

Think of the ~~children~~ data!

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#830

Post by altairprime »

mike_hearn wrote: post #478
altairprime wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a scenario where this does work: you can install any operating system on the hardware you own, if you complete a “erase all content and settings” dire scary confirmation screen. - If you want to run something other than iPadOS or Google TV, go for it. (Smart TVs are just tablets with a don’t-touch screen.) - If you want to install spyware on someone’s phone, you can’t; the HSM keys held by their OS are lost w…

Your phone can allow that. Many Android devices allow exactly that. Google Pixel devices do, for instance, exactly because Google's Android team has always agreed with you.

I appreciate your support of this position :)
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