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The $25k car is going extinct?

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Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#821

Post by itsoktocry »

alerighi wrote: post #432
BanterTrouble wrote: post #382

I work on my own cars now (as a hobby really) and one of the reasons the new cars are so expensive is they are much more complicated. A lot of this seems to be over-engineering IMO. This is alluded to in the article, but not explicitly stated. The cars I work on are from the early 90s and everything is very simple to understand. e.g. Electronics are normally simple circuits that aren't much more complicated than what…

Yes, if they would make a basic car like in the past I would buy it. Everyone has to sell you too much, I want a simple car, I don't want either the stereo, I will add my own later (I can put it one that is better than the factory one for a cheaper price, but in a modern car replacing the stereo is almost impossible). There are a ton of useless sensors, the sensor that tells you if you have a flat tire (I think I can…

Spoken like someone who hasn't owned a late model car.

>I can put it one that is better than the factory one for a cheaper price

As someone who used to be involved in the car audio competition scene, those days are long gone. Modern sounds systems are great, and tightly integrated into the A/V system.

>the sensor that tells you if you have a flat tire

The sensor will tell you when there's a rapid drop in pressure. You won't notice the flat until you're near driving on the rim.

>the emergency call button (while everyone has a mobile phone these days), automatic regulating seats (pulling a lever is too much difficult), dual zone clima control (it's the same space in the same car, why I would want to set 2 different temperatures?)

Old man yells at great features.

>they no longer provide you with a spare tire, just an useless repair kit...

Yeah, they provide roadside assistance. Because changing your tire on the side of the road is dangerous (as is driving on the donut).

Plenty of used jalopies out there for you.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#822

Post by lossolo »

bityard wrote: post #671
NickC25 wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's a bad thing? A country's government sees an opportunity to invest into a promising new technology that could reap tremendous economic benefits. Such benefits include new jobs, new income, the ability to increase social/political capital worldwide, and help usher in a world that is that much less reliant on oil. That's what countries in the first world are supposed to do .

When we say Chinese government subsides, we are not talking about tax reductions or interest free business loans, we are talking about the Chinese government itself operating the business and selling the products at a steep loss in order to undercut and wipe out incumbent global competition in the world market so that China becomes the primary worldwide supplier of those particular goods. This has already happened to…

> When we say Chinese government subsides, we are not talking about tax reductions or interest free business loans, we are talking about the Chinese government itself operating the business and selling the products at a steep loss in order to undercut and wipe out incumbent global competition in the world market so that China becomes the primary worldwide supplier of those particular goods.

Where did you get that information? There were previous investigations by the EU Commission about Chinese government subsides, and "tax reductions or interest-free business loans" were the main allegations.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#823

Post by bumby »

lan321 wrote: post #770
bumby wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That becomes circular logic because ABS is also required by law

Eh, you really don't want a car without ABS, though. For motorcycles, I kinda get it since you can't do some stunts with ABS, but on a car, it has zero benefit nowadays. Mandatory ABS, seatbelts and airbags would be the big things for me, followed by sexy, modern ESP, TC for powerful RWD cars and collision warning beeper (no autobrake at high speed, that shit's deadly and I hate that it can't be permanently disabled…

My point is that the features are there because a regulatory body has made it a requirement. It doesn’t mean it’s a bad requirement.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#824

Post by NickC25 »

bityard wrote: post #671
NickC25 wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's a bad thing? A country's government sees an opportunity to invest into a promising new technology that could reap tremendous economic benefits. Such benefits include new jobs, new income, the ability to increase social/political capital worldwide, and help usher in a world that is that much less reliant on oil. That's what countries in the first world are supposed to do .

When we say Chinese government subsides, we are not talking about tax reductions or interest free business loans, we are talking about the Chinese government itself operating the business and selling the products at a steep loss in order to undercut and wipe out incumbent global competition in the world market so that China becomes the primary worldwide supplier of those particular goods. This has already happened to…

We've done similar things when it comes to military and military-adjacent technology.

If a government believes in the potential and promise of a given technology and wants to dominate in that sector, it should be allowed to. That's the premise of worldwide capitalism and markets. Capital is allocated to where the owners of said capital wish to allocate it to, and that's the free market at work.

Is it an unfair advantage? Define "fair".

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#825

Post by Dylan16807 »

pif wrote: post #729
foobarian wrote: post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention how much more functionality present day cars have. (mentioned in a couple comments elsewhere, but things like airbags/backup cameras/other sensors etc).

Cars have much more functionality these days, and it is good. But too much of that functionality is mandatory, and this is bad.

What's new on the mandatory list?

Electronic stability control doesn't sound like it adds any meaningful costs over ABS. Backup cameras are a cost but not a huge one. What else is there?

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#826

Post by itsoktocry »

toxik wrote: post #552
bumby wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those “useless” sensors like tire pressure or backup camera are required by law. Even if you get a bare bones hatchback (manual transmission, manual locks, manual windows etc.) they’ll be forced to include those.

They are required by law in no small part because car manufacturers want it to be. Compliance is a moat.

I often wonder what it's like to think everything is some grand corporate conspiracy.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#827

Post by NickC25 »

mattmaroon wrote: post #750
NickC25 wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's a bad thing? A country's government sees an opportunity to invest into a promising new technology that could reap tremendous economic benefits. Such benefits include new jobs, new income, the ability to increase social/political capital worldwide, and help usher in a world that is that much less reliant on oil. That's what countries in the first world are supposed to do .

Well, it’s a bad thing for countries whose economies include manufacturing and aren’t China, sure. The obvious threat is that they will do what they did with manufacturing capacity and just kill the industry in other places. Do we want to get to a point where every industry is completely run by whichever country is willing to throw the most money at it?

>Do we want to get to a point where every industry is completely run by whichever country is willing to throw the most money at it?

The whole point of specialization of industry is that yes, we absolutely should be OK with that. If that's where China wants to specialize and deploy resources, let them.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#828

Post by 9rx »

madduci wrote: post #426
paganel wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can still buy a new subcompact car (like a Renault Clio or Skoda Fabia) in Europe for under 20k EUR. They're also on their out around these parts, very unfortunately.

Fiat has just announced and produced the Panda, which is also a cheap vehicle. Also the Tipo was very cheap (15-20k) and Dacia makes also cheap, but good cars. I still don't understand the urge in the US to own a Truck at any cost

> I still don't understand the urge in the US to own a Truck at any cost

Prior to the pandemic's impact on prices, trucks generally offered better TCO. I struggle to imagine that still holds true in the current landscape, but the shift has happened recently enough that we don't really have a good picture of what the total cost is over a sufficiently long period in light of how the world has changed.

So, right now, amid many unknowns, people are gambling on the past being indicative of the future. They might get burned hard, or they might come out smiling in the end. Time will tell. When it does, and assuming it shows that the TCO benefit is no longer there, you will start to see movement away from them. People aren't completely irrational – but they are slow.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#829

Post by bumby »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #767
bumby wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those “useless” sensors like tire pressure or backup camera are required by law. Even if you get a bare bones hatchback (manual transmission, manual locks, manual windows etc.) they’ll be forced to include those.

Honestly, good! I am so tired of these insane "I want nothing but an engine" spiritual boomers. They are making the road far more dangerous for everyone. Yes, I will force you to have automatic emergency breaking in your Model T hotrod. Yes, you will be mad. Yes, the road will be a lot safer. No I don't care about your boomer rage about technology. No you don't want to live with India tier road laws/standards - even…

FWIW, I’m one of those people but geared (ha) towards reliability. I’ll take the ABS and TPMS, but I don’t want “bells and whistles“ of touch screens and air conditioned seats. I’m after safety and reliability more than creature comforts.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#830

Post by conductr »

freetonik wrote: post #241
jonah wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dinner is ready when it is done. I'm sure there are others in English as well.

Yeah, a thing can be ready to be used/eaten/etc. What confuses me sometimes is, for example, a doctor writing some notes on their computer and then saying to me "now you are ready", meaning that we're done and I can go.

In that context, my response would be "ready for what?"

Dinner being ready, my car being ready (at a mechanic), things like that have proper context that being ready means being done.

I'm an English as single language pleb though

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