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IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

haaretz.com

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#821

Post by krembo »

wuschel wrote: post #307

How credible is the reporting in in Haaretz? I am normally fairly well accustomed to the reliability and credibility of newspapers, but I have never read this newspaper.

So nice that pro-Israeli comments get flagged and moderators do nothing about that. Talking about bias and censorship, I guess some contradictory thoughts are not very welcomed for some who think about themselves as standing in the frontlines of democracy. Also disappointed about @dang, there seems very little objective admin work done here.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#822

Post by atoav »

neepi wrote: post #659
edanm wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll provide context too - I'm a Jewish Israeli. I'd probably be considered left (or even far-left) by Israeli standards, but I'm in the "pro-Israeli" camp as conventionally understood online. This Haaretz article is very troubling. To the extent it's accurate, there's not much question that it reflects war crimes. A few thoughts: 1. The article itself says there is an ongoing investigation into some of these accusat…

I don't like getting involved in political threads but on this I have to. All information presented is mostly unverified testimony printed verbatim by the press from untrustworthy sources on both sides. It's difficult to tell what is fact and what is not. A lot of early reports in this war turned out to be false information and the rush to immediate news notification rather than quality journalism means that the head…

This has been one of the deadliest conflicts for journalists in history. The number of killed journalists is very safe data, since the names are known and the cause of death is typically relatively well researched.

The story told by the data is that these journalists are overwhelmingly killed by Israeli forces, in some cases with prior notice of the press being where it was.

So if the IDF wants the press to tell the true story on the ground maybe let them do their work without killing them? The quesrion is: at which point do we have to stop assuming incompetence and start to assume malice (at least in parts)? For me personally that point has been months in the past.

This will be a stain on Israel for the rest of history.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#823

Post by underdeserver »

neepi wrote: post #817
notjulianjaynes wrote: post #738

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>(I wrote an extensive suite of software to track this) Interesting. . . do you have a page for the project or anything?

No it’s internally used. Think of it like archive.ph but with text extraction and a diff like interface over the text.

Can you share examples then?

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#824

Post by Sporktacular »

perlgeek wrote: post #79
ahartmetz wrote: post #26

Why though, what does it achieve? Do they want to make sure that there will be terrorists / freedom fighters in the future so that they have a reason not to negotiate? Because they expect to "win" if violence continues?

From Israel's perspective, Palestinians are a problem. Long term, they have a few options: 1) Give them their own state. This is difficult for quite many reasons, and Israel (by which I mean the current government) doesn't want that 2) Give them full citizenship rights equal to Israel's citizens, make sure they have a proper minority representation, and let them participate in the regular political processes. The cur…

Funny how exiling Gazans to the West Bank is out of the question. It's almost as if they have designs on the entirety of it.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#825

Post by Hikikomori »

YZF wrote: post #806
Hikikomori wrote: post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't know the facts. Like we didn't do with the buried ambulances and journalists like Shireen Akleh. It didn't happen. We didn't do it. If it happened Hamas did it. If we did it they deserved it. Oh it's on video, our bad, we did an oopsie. Countless of cases like this.

I agree these don't all look good but you're lumping different things under the same umbrella. And you're blaming the victim. If Hamas didn't attack Israel on Oct 7th then there wouldn't be Israeli soldiers in Gaza killing and getting killed and there wouldn't be issues with ambulances. It doesn't help that Hamas uses ambulances and that its combatants don't wear uniforms and rely on being able to pass as civilians a…

[flagged]

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#826

Post by neepi »

atoav wrote: post #822
neepi wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like getting involved in political threads but on this I have to. All information presented is mostly unverified testimony printed verbatim by the press from untrustworthy sources on both sides. It's difficult to tell what is fact and what is not. A lot of early reports in this war turned out to be false information and the rush to immediate news notification rather than quality journalism means that the head…

This has been one of the deadliest conflicts for journalists in history. The number of killed journalists is very safe data, since the names are known and the cause of death is typically relatively well researched. The story told by the data is that these journalists are overwhelmingly killed by Israeli forces, in some cases with prior notice of the press being where it was. So if the IDF wants the press to tell the…

I don't disagree with you there at all. That again backs up my point. There is a lot of information and evidence to back those cases up. Which should be the universal standard that we hold everyone accountable to.

This information didn't just appear out of nowhere. It took time to collate, source and verify.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#827

Post by ost-ing »

7sigma wrote: post #685
ost-ing wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Be aware that Jews are not native to Palestine, except those that had been living there before the state was founded. Not true, many Semitic Jews who fled from those lands due to persecution went to Europe and North Africa, that includes Ashkenazi and Sephardim Jews. The difficulty I have with your statement is akin to denying a white, blue eyed aboriginal in Australia their heritage to the land just because one of…

Just because they are not native doesn't mean they can't live there, but they shouldn't live while oppressing the native Palestinians and prevent them from returning in order to preserve an ethnic majority. Jews outside of Palestine are not uniquely descended from Jews that lived there 2000 years ago. Also the idea of Jews as a homogeneous people is a fairly recent phenomenon, people married into Jewish families, con…

> Just because they are not native doesn't mean they can't live there

I don't make a claim that they should or should not be allowed to live there. My statement isnt about rights to land, oppressing others or national zionism.

My statement is about heritage and what it means to be “native”, obviously what that means for people and genetic links to semitic peoples varies greatly, and as such, you cannot make blanket statements that “jews are not native” just because you disagree with the nationalist movement.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#828

Post by actionfromafar »

edanm wrote: post #719
DrillShopper wrote: post #684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that this response is from a cynical American sick of Israel always Getting Away With It. I have no problem with Jewish people, but I strongly distrust the state of Israel and believe that it's a force that makes Jewish people less safe as the state screams it is doing what it is doing to protect Jewish people. One of my close college friends is a rabbi, and we've been talking about this since the start of the h…

> There is zero chance that happens as long as Netanyahu, Likud, Trump, or the Reupublicans are in power. Trump would immediately offer asylum in the US to anybody accused of such a thing. This is untrue - Israel has investigated war crimes, e.g. famously things like what happened at the Sde Teiman prison. > So if you want accountability, drive that internally with your politicians and get Netanyahu/Likud out of offi…

Israel investigates harder when it learns that the ICC might otherwise investigate a specific case. Very cynical.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#829

Post by neoromantique »

EasyMark wrote: post #609
srj wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

They have a right to take out Hamas, they don't have the right to mow down crowds of starving people with sub-machine guns while they're just trying to get to some food

Your comment puts you firmly in pro-israel camp by today's western standards.

There's no disagreement about contents of the article being a war crime, if it is true.

Haaretz is not a reliable source, they often publish hearsay and seldom verify the testimonies. We have reports of seemingly daily massacres around food distribution sites mostly originating from one single "journalist" with direct self described sympathy towards Hamas and source always being "locals told me", yet somehow it ends up being published in Reuters et all on a semi-daily basis.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#830

Post by actionfromafar »

FridayoLeary wrote: post #723
ashoeafoot wrote: post #700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

That would be too impractical. The fact of the matter is that the only effective way is basically how the GHF is doing it already. It's sad that the UN and western media are running with the pro hamas anti GHF narrative. They are giving hamas every incentive to disrupt aid distribution as much as possible. At the very least the shocking fact that UNWRA are against Gazans getting aid when it's not done through them ex…

Yes, it’s much easier to get people into killboxes with only a handful of distribution points instead of hundreds. Yay GHF!
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