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Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

bbc.com

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Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#821

Post by foldr »

brigandish wrote: post #762
foldr wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a very American perspective (which is fine, given that we are talking about America). Most countries would view this as a non-partisan public health policy issue which has nothing to do with the abstract philosophical debates about freedom beloved of 90s internet libertarians.

Isaiah Berlin wrote about the two concepts of liberty[0] in 1958 and the constitution of the US is based on negative liberty, so it goes back a bit further than the 90s. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Concepts_of_Liberty

I'm aware of the history (I said "beloved of", not "invented by"). My point is that it's idiosyncratically American to think of decisions about municipal water treatment as being fundamentally questions of political liberty.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#822

Post by [deleted] »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #813
lee_ars wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Second, it completely ignores any debate over effectiveness or side effects. It could well be that fluoride in water is great for teeth but bad for brains. Except it's not—fluoride in the drinking water concentrations is proven safe and it doesn't affect brains. > Im not clear the validity of those claims Thoroughly scientifically debunked. Repeatedly, over decades. > That seems the core issue- without bias from st…

While I would like to think that I have gotten a lot smarter in the last 20 years it seems more likely that other people have on average gotten a lot dumber. While I’m sure there are many causes I’m of the opinion that no stone should remain unturned when looking for answers. Fluorine in water has a viable alternative (toothpaste that is spit out) so out of an abundance of caution my preference is for unflurinated wa…

[deleted]

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#823

Post by losvedir »

lee_ars wrote: post #740
mdorazio wrote: post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you made multiple strong claims without a single citation or study link. We could have a better conversation with data to look at. There's a decent (though somewhat biased) review of the debate in [1]. It's worth noting that if you read the linked studies there closely you'll find the truth is, as usual, nuanced. Specifically, that "fluoridation is a population-level caries preventive…

That's a whole lot of words for you acknowledging that I'm right. Fluoridated drinking water, at the appropriate levels, has no effect on IQ. Would you like to debate the reality of anthropogenic climate change next? This will be another area where any links you dig up will only point to a single conclusion.

> Fluoridated drinking water, at the appropriate levels

Going to hijack this comment to ask about something I've always wondered: how robust are "appropriate" drinking levels to the different things you can reasonably expect people to do with the water? Not all water is simply drunk as is.

For example, I like to make beans in my slow cooker. This involves simmering them for 9 or 10 hours, periodically adding more water. In theory, this will increase the concentration of fluoride because the fluoride doesn't boil off while the water does. I assume, based on how much water I need to keep adding, this could double the fluoride concentration. Is that still appropriate levels? What about a cup that has been left out such that a lot of the water evaporates? That won't increase the amount of fluoride, but will increase its concentration.

I have to assume the "wiggle room" they build into the fluoridation rate handles these cases, but it's been hard to find any details on it since most of the results are about stuff like boiling water removing fluoride or turning it into poison fluorine gas and stuff.

Nevertheless, every time I see discussion where people talk about safe levels, I wonder how that works with all the things people do with water other than just drinking it as is.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#824

Post by jimbohn »

cladopa wrote: post #511

For me as a European, adding fluoride to water for your teeth is as ridiculous as cutting the foreskin of babies' penis in name of (dubious) "hygienic reasons". But people get used to it. Specially when they don't get to experience the alternative. Most people rationalise it is a good thing. Stockholm syndrome.

I was thinking exactly the same thing, down to the circumcision thing. This whole discourse gives me the vibe of something the American society has randomly walked on and now is an "it has always been like this".

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#825

Post by naasking »

SigmundA wrote: post #719
naasking wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except it's not—fluoride in the drinking water concentrations is proven safe and it doesn't affect brains. You mean like this: Fluoride Exposure and Children’s IQ Scores A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis, https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/... "Findings: Despite differences in exposure and outcome measures and risk of bias across studies, and when using group-level and individual-level…

That is not a study of drinking water concentrations, but much higher naturally occurring levels. Its also has pretty poor confidence intervals: https://journalistsresource.org/home/how-to-read-this-study-... https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abst... I would be careful throwing a single study around as proof of anything, here is one with a different conclusion: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/f…

The source of fluoride is irrelevant, the effect of fluoride is cumulative. If you get 0.7mg/L from drinking water and then add toothpaste and other sources, you could easily surmount the level where harmful effects occur.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#826

Post by seabass-labrax »

Ruphin wrote: post #636
usrusr wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not when it comes to religion though: the European way (and I feel very much like considering Canadians something like honorary Europeans these days) was forged in painful wars stemming from and fueled by influence of religion on politics, and abuse of religion by politics. Both on the collective level, not so much on the individual level. The European way is all about having a strong firewall between religion and po…

This is factually incorrect. Even though in most European countries there is a formal separation of religion and state, there is nothing that "forbids" any political party from having a strong religious affiliation. In fact, in nearly every European country there are major political parties with a strong Christian affiliation. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_democracy There are even countries which have…

Parent never said that political parties were forbidden from having a religious affiliation. Yet, the 'Christian' in European 'Christian democracy' is not remotely comparable to the role of religion in the society of the USA.

The USA is overtly and intentionally Christian: American banknotes have "In God We Trust" emblazoned on one side, and schoolchildren (usually) recite an oath pledging allegiance to "one nation under God". Christian democracy, on the other hand, usually stands for a loosely defined, mildly conservative political ideology in a strictly secular system of governance.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#827

Post by bowmessage »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #644
torginus wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally speaking I see fluoridation as a ridiciulous idea, on the grounds that the vast majority of tap water ends up being used for things other than brushing your teeth. It is wasteful and damaging to the environment, that excess flouride that has no business being there ends up in the drain, or the water you use for your plants. Flouride should be put in the toothpaste. Then people can make a choice on whether t…

Fluoridation for public health is done at lower levels than fluoride is found naturally in water in other areas. If it's harmful as you imply, lots of water would need defluoridation.

https://www.npr.org/2024/08/23/nx-s1-5086886/fluoride-and-iq

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#828

Post by Vegenoid »

briandear wrote: post #477

These American experts who are “disheartened” — do they not pay attention to Europe? Or do they only get upset when Republicans do something? Europe (and many parts of Asia,) is objectively healthier than most of the residents of the USA; so maybe rather than knee-jerking against anything RFK Jr., perhaps the so-called experts should start doing their jobs and looking at what healthier places in the rest of the world…

Do you seriously think that dental and health experts don’t rail against those things? They do, and they consider those things far more important than fluoridated water. Their opinions on fluoride are being shared because there is notable news about fluoridated water.

Americans do not want to hear about how they should eat healthier.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#829

Post by naasking »

lee_ars wrote: post #736
naasking wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except it's not—fluoride in the drinking water concentrations is proven safe and it doesn't affect brains. You mean like this: Fluoride Exposure and Children’s IQ Scores A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis, https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/... "Findings: Despite differences in exposure and outcome measures and risk of bias across studies, and when using group-level and individual-level…

Hah. Maybe, as noted by others, you should read the study cited before assuming its conclusions support your argument. Which they do not.

Maybe apply some critical thinking and notice that the water levels from fluoridation add on top of any other sources of fluoride people ingest, eg. toothpaste, food, etc.
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