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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

ft.com

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#821

Post by karim79 »

So, banning high-powered chips to China has basically had the effect of turning them into extremophiles. I mean, that seems like a good plan . Moreover, it is certainly slowing sales of one of the darling companies of the US (NVidia).

I just can't even begin to imagine what will come of this riduculous techno-imperialism/AI arms-race, or whatever you want to call it. It should not be too hard for China to create their own ASICs which do the same, and finally be done with this palaver.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#822

Post by Spooky23 »

leobg wrote: post #711

OpenAI is taking the position similar to that if you sell a cook book, people are not allowed to teach the recipes to their kids, or make better versions of them. That is absurd. Copyright law is designed to strike a balance between two issues. One the one hand, the creator’s personality that’s baked into the specific form of expression. And on the other hand, society’s interest in ideas being circulated, improved an…

Seriously. OpenAI consciously stole The NY Times for almost all news content. Everything about the company is shady.

Sam should focus on the product instead of trying to out-jerk Elon and his buddies.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#823

Post by Spooky23 »

dartos wrote: post #685
miki123211 wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data IANAL, but It is worth noting here that DeepSeek has explicitly consented to a license that doesn't allow them to do this . That is a condition of using the Chat GPT and the OpenAI API. Even if the courts affirm that there's a fair use defence for AI training, DeepSeek may still be in the wrong here, not because of cop…

TOS are not contracts.

People here will argue that. But the Chinese DNGAF.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#824

Post by zbshqoa »

troyvit wrote: post #271
zbshqoa wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically that's the actual headline. Only another AI can replace AI, pretty much like LLMs / Transformers have replaced "old" AI models in certain task (NLP, Sentiment Analysis, Translation etc) and research is in progress for other tasks as well performed by traditional models (personalization, forecasting, anomaly detection etc). If there's a better AI, old AI will lose the job first.

> NLP, Sentiment Analysis, Translation etc As somebody who got to work adjacent to some of these things for a long time, I've been wondering about this. Are LLMs and transformers actually better than these "old" models or is it more of an 80/20 thing where for a lot less work (on developers' behalf) LLMs can get 80% of the efficacy of these old models? I ask because I worked for a company that had a related content e…

It's 80/20, but in some tasks it's much better (e.g. translation)

Nonetheless the fact that you can just change a bit the prompt to instruct the model to do what you want makes everything much faster.

Yes the trade-off is that you need GPUs to make it run, but that's why we have cloud

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#825

Post by realusername »

sangnoir wrote: post #606
worik wrote: post #431

[flagged]

> Banned in the USA. Only. The US government has the wherewithal to drag Europe along with it, like they did with Huawei's 5G equipment.

Not really anymore, and I would bet that the way things are going, Twitter will be banned in the EU before Tiktok.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#826

Post by forgotoldacc »

aerhardt wrote: post #524
Ciantic wrote: post #87

I'm not being sarcastic, but we may soon have to torrent DeepSeek's model. OpenAI has a lot of clout in the US and could get DeepSeek banned in western countries for copyright.

Unfathomable to me that they'd make themselves look so foolish by trying to ban a piece of software.

It wouldn't be foolish. The US has an active cult of personality, and whatever the leader says, half the country believes it unquestioningly. If OpenAI is said to be protecting America and DeepSeek is doing terrible, terrible things to the children (many smart people are saying it), there'll be an overnight pivot to half the country screaming for it to be banned and harassing anyone who says otherwise.

Who cares if some people think you look foolish when you have a locked down 500 billion dollar investment guarantee?

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#827

Post by chii »

wzdd wrote: post #799
leobg wrote: post #711

OpenAI is taking the position similar to that if you sell a cook book, people are not allowed to teach the recipes to their kids, or make better versions of them. That is absurd. Copyright law is designed to strike a balance between two issues. One the one hand, the creator’s personality that’s baked into the specific form of expression. And on the other hand, society’s interest in ideas being circulated, improved an…

The stuff about copyright seems irrelevant. OpenAI's future investments -- billions -- were just threatened to be undercut by several orders of magnitude by a competitor. It's in their best interests to cast doubt on that competitor's achievements. If they can do so by implying that OpenAI are in fact the source of most of the DeepSeek's performance then all the better. It doesn't matter whether there's a compelling…

> It's in their best interests to cast doubt on that competitor's achievements.

it is, but the 2nd order logic says that if they are trying to cast doubt, it means they've got nothing better to offer and casting doubt is the only step they have.

if i was an investor in openAI, this should be very scary as it simply means I've overvalued it.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#828

Post by kamranjon »

I was just wondering if this is even feasible?

The amount of iterations of training that would be needed for DeepSeek to actually learn anything from OpenAI would seem to be an insane amount of requests from a non-local AI, which you’d think would be immediately obvious to OpenAI just by looking at suspicious requests?

Am I correct in this assumption or am I missing something? Is it even realistic that something like this is possible without a local model?

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#830

Post by miki123211 »

blibble wrote: post #719
miki123211 wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data IANAL, but It is worth noting here that DeepSeek has explicitly consented to a license that doesn't allow them to do this . That is a condition of using the Chat GPT and the OpenAI API. Even if the courts affirm that there's a fair use defence for AI training, DeepSeek may still be in the wrong here, not because of cop…

training is either fair use, or it isn't OpenAI can't have it both ways

The issue here is breach of contract, not copyright.
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