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Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

theguardian.com

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Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#821

Post by exceptione »

defrost wrote: post #813
exceptione wrote: post #808

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normal people: We see you host groups for organized crime, we need targetted data you have about those criminals. This is what law enforcement should do (instead of surveillance dragnets). HN: NO! free speech. Sincere advice: get out of those libertarian echo chambers, and think about real consequences.

I'm not a liberatarian nor am I a US citizen (Australian), however ... IF you let LEO's access group chats THEN you absolutely need civilian accountable honest transparent clear oversight to avoid mission creep. The task isn't as clear cut as "known criminal is part of OC groups", there's a clear Sorities Paradox asking when does an OC group chat become a neighbourhood watch | knitting group chat. If our criminal of…

I would be very concerned if your knitting grandma was an active member of a drugs and arms dealergroup.

I am pretty much against surveillance in the form of drag nets, but none of that applies here. Instead, this is exactly how a functional state should work.

(And note that no exceptions are made for Pavel because he is rich and well-connected. Contrast that with brittle countries where politicians rely on tech billionaires to fund their campaigns.)

I sympathize with you being an Aussie; I can see where your allergy comes from, but in this case it is misplaced.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#822

Post by sanbor »

NayamAmarshe wrote: post #605
api wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telegram encryption is off by default and is a joke compared to Signal and others. This has nothing to do with encryption. I could list a dozen E2E encrypted things in common use that are all legal and online. It has nothing to do with ordinary sorts of “bad” content either like hate speech or crypto scams or whatever. All of that can be found in abundance in many places, all of which are still online. This is about…

> Telegram encryption is off by default This is false. Telegram's non-secret chats use MTProto 2.0 Cloud. "Encryption is off by default" is a false claim. 1. https://telegram.org/faq#q-do-you-process-data-requests 2. https://core.telegram.org/mtproto/description

Using https would already mean encryption is not off by default. There are so many layers that can be encrypted. But at the end data is stored somewhere, and the keys must be available to the infrastructure to decrypt and serve the content.

Maybe the parent content meant E2E is off by default, which is what your first link states:

> Secret chats use end-to-end encryption, thanks to which we don't have any data to disclose.

Then the next paragraphs elaborate about the non-E2E encryption, and how would it be harder —- while not impossible —- to disclose data.

From the same link you shared:

> Thanks to this structure, we can ensure that no single government or block of like-minded countries can intrude on people's privacy and freedom of expression. Telegram can be forced to give up data only if an issue is grave and universal enough to pass the scrutiny of several different legal systems around the world.

Maybe getting the CEO of the company arrested is what it gets to disclose that data they want. After all he controls infrastructure and deployments.

Meanwhile, unlike Telegram, everything in Signal is E2E by default[1].

1: https://signal.org/bigbrother/santa-clara-county/

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#823

Post by Stagnant »

NayamAmarshe wrote: post #605
api wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telegram encryption is off by default and is a joke compared to Signal and others. This has nothing to do with encryption. I could list a dozen E2E encrypted things in common use that are all legal and online. It has nothing to do with ordinary sorts of “bad” content either like hate speech or crypto scams or whatever. All of that can be found in abundance in many places, all of which are still online. This is about…

> Telegram encryption is off by default This is false. Telegram's non-secret chats use MTProto 2.0 Cloud. "Encryption is off by default" is a false claim. 1. https://telegram.org/faq#q-do-you-process-data-requests 2. https://core.telegram.org/mtproto/description

Well, they are "encrypted", but not end-to-end encrypted. Encryption does not really mean much if someone else has the keys. So it is reasonable to treat non-secret chat messages as if they were unencrypted.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#826

Post by inglor_cz »

jorvi wrote: post #818
hnpolicestate wrote: post #728

It's hard to respond to some of the commentary here. We truly exist mentally on different planets. The West wants Telegram destroyed because the platform permits the sharing of information and ideas that are in opposition to Western domestic and foreign policy(Israel, Ukraine, China etc). This is in addition to the West not having a backdoor to Telegram and not having it's servers on Western soil. Why do you want you…

I think you are living on a different planet. I am pretty staunchly pro-privacy, but this arrest has little to do with > permits the sharing of information and ideas that are in opposition to Western domestic and foreign policy(Israel, Ukraine, China etc) It is about drug sales and extremism, that last one being about alt right / anti-vaccine crazies / terrorism, whatever else extremism du jour.

Do you believe everything that is written down?

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#827

Post by exceptione »

diggan wrote: post #810
exceptione wrote: post #761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are distracting from the issue: when law enforcement infiltrate into criminal telegram groups (drugs, child trafficking etc), they are for once doing their fucking job by ordering the platform to give them all the details they collect, so that they can come after those criminals. If Telegram did actually prioritize private and secure communication, they would indeed be just a data pipe and nothing could be shared…

> ordering the platform to give them all the details they collect, so that they can come after those criminals. What details are you assuming Telegram are sitting on, besides the data law enforcement already collected? Durov got arrested for insufficient moderation of public channels, so my guess is that law enforcement would be able to get exactly the same data as Telegram themselves sit on. But it's hard to get a f…

Let me introduce you how 1-1 chats are not encrypted by the default, that this option is quite hidden, that many/most Telegram users don´t even know about "private chats", and that their particular hand-rolled encryption scheme has been questioned by encryption experts for many years.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#828

Post by jasonvorhe »

topspin wrote: post #676
jasonvorhe wrote: post #442

Use the CEO as lever to gain control over a Russian controlled medium used to deliver unfiltered information about a lot of ongoing conflicts right now. Can't have that when you're hell bent on war.

> Russian controlled medium There are a large number of highly active Ukrainian channels on Telegram, all about as anti-Russian as you would expect. There are Ukrainian government ministers operating channels on Telegram. How does that occur on a "Russian controlled medium?" I don't speak either Russian or Ukrainian. I know none of these channel operators. Yet I've been granted approval on a number of "private" Ukrai…

Why would they? It's mostly just a couple of thousand people following those channels. Analyzing their meta data and behavior is worth much more than restricting reach of these channels or forcing them to go elsewhere.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#829

Post by ilumanty »

jorvi wrote: post #818
hnpolicestate wrote: post #728

It's hard to respond to some of the commentary here. We truly exist mentally on different planets. The West wants Telegram destroyed because the platform permits the sharing of information and ideas that are in opposition to Western domestic and foreign policy(Israel, Ukraine, China etc). This is in addition to the West not having a backdoor to Telegram and not having it's servers on Western soil. Why do you want you…

I think you are living on a different planet. I am pretty staunchly pro-privacy, but this arrest has little to do with > permits the sharing of information and ideas that are in opposition to Western domestic and foreign policy(Israel, Ukraine, China etc) It is about drug sales and extremism, that last one being about alt right / anti-vaccine crazies / terrorism, whatever else extremism du jour.

If our democracy is as robust as our leaders advertise it, it should easily cope with extremism, anti-vaxxers and system opponents.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#830

Post by inglor_cz »

the_third_wave wrote: post #733
T-A wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be surprised to learn who's doing the pushing: https://www.wired.com/story/europes-moral-crusader-lays-down... https://www.statewatch.org/news/2024/july/police-should-have...

Ylva Johansson, a "former" Communist who joined the social democratic party when that turned out to be a more sure-fire way to gain power is decidedly not the Swedish government. It it people like her and the policies they implemented which pushed the "Sweden Democrats" (a somewhat conservative nationalist party, their program resembles they of the social democratic party in the 1950's-1960's) to become the second-bi…

And yet the current Swedish government appointed her again to the European Commission.
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