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Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

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Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#821
post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then when do you take action (if ever)? I think you _never_ take secretive action. You don't go behind someone's back. They should have said, "Sam, we think you are wrong, we think we are right, and we think you are not listening, so we are going to take this to the board." They should not have conspired. Don't conspire. Also, in my experience, in a situation like this where sides A and B see things differently, an…

I think this is a very reasonable stance for most situations. IDK what the dynamics inside OpenAI are like. In nearly all scenarios, I would agree with you, but if sama is really a master manipulator like some people are saying, then some level of secrecy/conspiracy might have been necessary to escalate to the board without being pushed out of the company first. Let's take an extreme hypothetical where Sam instructs…

> but if sama is really a master manipulator like some people are saying

I like what you did here. You steelmanned their argument.

That being said, I think in that case, if it is something you believe so fervently in that you are willing to conspire, then the correct course of action is to not conspire, but resign or stand up to him, and, as you say risk being "ruined".

I never see a reason to conspire.

Better to have everything taken from you but keep your integrity, rather than the other way around.

(Disclosures: I know SamA personally from interactions years ago and have high opinions of his character, even though I disagree with him strongly on open source and secrecy [I'm on the extreme end of that one]. I also have the distinction of maybe being the only person person accepted into YCombinator twice and kicked out for standing up for something I believe in).

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#822

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m very curious how Donglegate was destined to be anything but a dumpster fire from moment number one. SendGrid wasn’t perfect by any stretch, but how could it have been better handled? Openly admitting that they fired someone as ransom for a DDOS?

I believe the response grew to the ddos in part due to silence. With no word from the inside, mob justice took over. Had the company immediately said something along the lines of this looks bad and we want to help fix it, Anonymous may not have targeted the company.

Thank you, I didn’t consider the timing aspect. I could see prompt and clear communications as being helpful.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are times and places where banks are not operating. In those places you work with cash.

while I can imagine some, what sorts of places are banks not operating for you?

I am not in the field right now, so I don't know. But deep in the bush of DRC, and Central African Republic probably.

Also any emergency operation is launched with tens of thousands of US dollars in a backpack in order to get moving without waiting for infrastructure to come back up.

Using cash does not mean you are not keeping records. In fact with cash, double entry handwritten records in journals is all the more important.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#824

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious for your take on this: https://venturebeat.com/ai/elon-musk-and-yann-lecuns-social-... Or this: > I personally wrote the first national maps, directions, yellow pages & white pages on the Internet in the summer of 1995 in C with a little C++. Didn't use a "web server" to save CPU cycles (just read port 8080 directly). Couldn't afford a Cisco T1 router, so wrote an emulator based on a white paper. Or maybe thi…

What are you arguing here? That Musk knows how to write code but, in your mind, isn't a good enough programmer to ... I don't know. Do what? Run Twitter? Run SpaceX? Understand Twitter's tech stack? The quotes you chose contain direct references to him coding, to code that he wrote himself. Where is the name dropping? Are you being confused by the reference to web servers in the first quote maybe? In 1995 the term we…

And what's his point? That he invented internet? Implementing a basic HTTP in C is like a first year CS lab (https://quip.com/Km9EAe5ARGZI). Without further information how do we know he is not inflating some toy week-end project any C programmer could have done back then? Also what's with specifying it's in C/C++? It was either that or assembly. Again hard to see his point. It gives me the same vibe than when he was proud of "direct flipping of CPU registers". All of this is very average if you were a hobby programmer at the time, we are not talking real world engineering like OS kernel (Linux/NT/...) or Game (Crash Bandicoot, RollerCoaster Tycoon, ...) just to name a few on top of my head.

My point is contrary to what he and his supporters claim he has has no deep understanding of the actual tech of his companies. I'm not arguing he doesn't know tech enough to run a tech company. It's common to find tech executives and VP that coded in their younger years. He might sit maybe a bit above a decent salespeople that has a good understanding of his product line, but below a Bill Gates and definitely not at the level of a ML researcher or Tech lead. He is maybe more invested that a typical CEO in day to day operations, but the aura of genius/inventor added on top is an illusion.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#825

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I literally said in my last comment who they could've told that would've made the whole thing probably go over better.

I don't think you understand how boards operate, especially in this case. It was the board of the OpenAI __non-profit__, of which Microsoft was _not_ an investor. In this case, their fiduciary duty was not to their shareholders, but rather to the company charter.

It's mostly dysfunctional boards that aren't doing their job I don't understand. You can talk about fiduciary duty all you want, but when you're the board of a "non-profit" that has a wholly-owned for-profit subsidiary and you don't seem to know what the hell that subsidiary is doing on a number of dimensions, you're either A. there for appearances only or B. terrible at your job.

Like, is your argument really "you don't know how boards work" when this is a fantastic example of a board completely failing at the basics of the job?

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#826

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On paper the board has the power and it’s their job to monitor and hire/fire the execs. But they’re dependent on the execs for info. It's way worse for the OpenAI board position in this case, because the company is basically just an assemblage of researchers, engineers, and Microsoft Azure credits. They can replace the CEO if they want, but all the value of the company can walk away if they don't like it.

> the company is basically just an assemblage of and . They can replace the CEO if they want, but all the value of the company can walk away if they don't like it. This is generally true of any company

Not really. For example, Google Search's value is mainly in the historical data it has amassed; its algorithms and infrastructure can be replicated elsewhere. Or, WhatsApp's value is in the network effects; a chat app infra and people can be replaced.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#827
post #821

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a very reasonable stance for most situations. IDK what the dynamics inside OpenAI are like. In nearly all scenarios, I would agree with you, but if sama is really a master manipulator like some people are saying, then some level of secrecy/conspiracy might have been necessary to escalate to the board without being pushed out of the company first. Let's take an extreme hypothetical where Sam instructs…

> but if sama is really a master manipulator like some people are saying I like what you did here. You steelmanned their argument. That being said, I think in that case, if it is something you believe so fervently in that you are willing to conspire, then the correct course of action is to not conspire, but resign or stand up to him, and, as you say risk being "ruined". I never see a reason to conspire. Better to hav…

> I like what you did here. You steelmanned their argument.

Yep. IDK what's going on inside OpenAI, and it could be that Sam is just doing his best and the board is being, well, snake-y. Or the truth is some confusing mess with nobody clearly in the right. I'm sure more details will come out in the fullness of time.

I admire your commitment to keeping your integrity! I think the world would be a better place if more people had your attitude.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#828
post #815

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think responding to "shove your submarine" with "you're a pedo" is somewhat disproportionate.

Yeah humanity in general and people like you and I are saints and would never respond to someone telling them to shove their creation up their arse by insulting back. The fact that one time in his life he did that is unforgivable.

I would never call anybody a pedo. Also, he does this sort of stuff all the time.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#829

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's $13 million for the federal estate tax exemption, and the top rate for Washington's is 20% of the amount over $9 million (it starts being taxed at $1m). It's a meaningless exemption if your net worth is $1b. > that’s the basis issue Basis is the amount paid for the stock. The basis boost happens at death. It has nothing to do with margin debt. Margin debt isn't free. There are limits to how much one can margin.…

> If you look at history, however, confiscating the wealth of the wealthy has never done much of anything to elevate the poor. Looking at history we find that confiscating the wealth of the poor has done much to elevate the wealthy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure

The poor don't have wealth to confiscate.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#830

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's an asset only barely less liquid than cash Have you ever tried to sell real estate? I have. It's nothing like the liquidity of cash. Cash I can spend right now. Real estate? It can be 6 months or more. Even borrowing against the equity takes a while. You have to spend time at the bank, get appraisals, get credit checks, and spend an afternoon at the escrow office reading 100 odd pages of contracts. Bleh. > Unb…

You're missing the holding company. I'm not going to teach you real estate as an asset-parking mechanism; there are plenty of articles about it you can find if you Google it instead of arguing with me about a topic you're clearly not familiar with. Here's a hint: the ownership of the property does not change. Only the holding company is modified, if even that. Once again you're ignoring the word "unbounded." I guess…

> For instance, who the hell is 'they'?

That's just being argumentative.

> Humanity would be unquestionably better off without SpaceX

Yes, it's much better to have 10x more expensive rockets.

> Your definition of success is apparently based entirely on financial gain

Financial gain due to providing people with the things they want at a price they are willing to pay.

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