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This is a teenager

pudding.cool

821–830 of 868 posts

Re: This is a teenager

#821
post #818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Liberalism as an ideology can be derived from two axioms Those axioms don't really create a consistent or substantial ethical universe. If I'm a serial killer and I say, "don't worry, we're all moral equals. You're just as entitled to kill me as I am to kill you," then I'm not violating your first principle. And if you were to respond, "killing like that is simply wrong," you'd be violating your second principle an…

> You're just as entitled to kill me as I am to kill you This is exactly it. Your freedom is a function of your relationship to those who can use legitimate force against you - of how much power is held over you. If you can be killed without consequence then you're only as free as you are strong. This is a description of liberal anarchy, which is the natural state. I guess I should have elaborated that the it is a li…

> it's anti-authoritarian, which is a synonym for liberal.

You don't have much grounding in leftist thought, do you? Nobody who had even a passing familiarity with left-wing anarchism would say this. It's not worth getting into; suffice it to say that plenty of anti-authoritarians are also anti-liberal. Politics are not a Manichean battle between Soviet communism and American capitalism.

> The answer, should you produce it

The answer is utilitarianism itself: a more robust system of axioms that justifies different things. I'm still unsatisfied with the system of ethical axioms you've lain out here; I find them overly vague.

> This was tried and failed in the Soviet Union for a reason.

The Soviet Union's problem was a failed vision for centralized planning. China has done quite well as an authoritarian state with more of a market approach. I think it's naive to assume that what is good must be productive and what is productive must be good. There's no inherent reason why an authoritarian state can't be successful. At a time when democracy is in decline both domestically and globally, it doesn't serve anyone's interests to blind ourselves to reality.

> Power is either diluted or concentrated.

Liberalism also concentrates power. It's the ideology of privileging the agency capital owners. "Freedom" in a liberal society means freedom from regulation; freedom for corporations to consolidate; freedom to own as much of anything you want, even when it comes to abstract concepts like land or ideas. It's an ideology in service of a particular status quo, like any other, and the status quo of liberalism is a hierarchy of ownership. It's naive to view "distributed" power as inherently better when that power is distributed primarily to members of a distinct social class with shared interests. That's just aristocracy by different means.

> The harm is caused by the agent (person) or natural circumstance that triggered the outcome.

Who cares? If someone's drowning, and you could throw them a life preserver, and you choose not to, then I don't care if the water killed them. You could have prevented their death at no cost to yourself. They're dead and it's your fault. Responsibility is ultimately not an important concept next to outcomes.

> People disagree axiomatically about what sort of upbringing constitutes injuring a child. You're sure you know best?

I'm not at all swayed by normative moral relativity. If you're a serial killer who thinks murder is good, and I disagree, neither of us is objectively right. But I'll still use as much force as it takes to stop your killing spree.

Yeah, I do think I know best. Or at least, I have no choice but to honour my own subjective morality. It's all I've got. The only conception of right and wrong that can ever matter to me, existentially, is my own.

> It's pretty simple, you have the same rights you would in a state of nature with no other person intervening.

Natural rights are the rights endowed to you by nature, not the rights you would have in the state of nature. Locke thought those were one and the same, but he wasn't the only natural rights theorist. Kant had his own ideas about how you could tell which rights we are supposed to have.

I find the state of nature to be a rather silly idea. We don't live in the woods; why should some imagined conception of what life would be like in the woods have any bearing on the ethics of modern life? Besides, nature honours no notion whatsoever of property, nor does it unfailingly provide us with (e.g.) fresh water. If I steal your wolf pelts, the forest won't send me to jail for it. It is natural for the strong to take advantage of the weak. That's natural selection. Justice and ethics are artificial.

I think the core of natural rights philosophy is just presenting a notion to the audience and going, "see? Doesn't this feel intuitive? Doesn't it feel NATURAL for us to have property?" No, I don't think it does. Frankly I don't care much what is and isn't natural anyway. Rape is natural—animals do it all the time. Antibiotics are not natural.

> The entire liberal thesis is that the right of people to choose how to live supersedes the authoritarian pursuit of collective outcomes.

The purpose of the liberal project is to justify a particular hierarchy of power and control using the language of freedom. "Authoritarian collective outcomes" here include things like squashing the private health insurance sector and guaranteeing coverage for the whole public. This is a very successful policy which is associated with massive gains in public well-being, and yet it's anti-freedom because it violates the freedom to run a private health insurance company, despite the fact that it also frees people from illness. Harm and well-being are elided in favour of the much more flexible concept of freedom, and that concept is invoked in the service of preserving the power of the powerful.

Re: This is a teenager

#822
post #791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MISTRA is a citation, it's a well-known name, just Google the study. Also: 1. TFA article talked only about correlations, because that's all they have. 2. Genetics influences all of TFA factors as well. 3. TFA discussed "adverse experiences", "parents involved" and "family risk scores". Guess what I said: parenting really only has a significant effect in cases of neglect and abuse. Sounds like we agree.

"Just Google it" - really? I have no doubt MISTRA exists, but demonstrating specifically where and how a study proves your point is something else entirely. The core assertion that parental involvement doesn't matter much as long as they're not abusive is pretty absurd regardless, but I'll leave the Googling of studies showing why as an exercise for you.

[deleted]

Re: This is a teenager

#823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Schools in the US cost more than schools in any other developed nation. Every institution in the US has been taken over by careerists and credentialists who produce nothing of value and are a drain on the system. For a simple example in our area look at twitter: we were told the servers would catch fire, the end times will be upon us and cats will live with dogs. Instead the servers kept chugging along just as well a…

These are bold claims that smell like dog whistles but I’m unfamiliar with any specifics. Got sources or what?

If you keep hearing dog whistles everywhere you may be a dog.

At any rate a quick google search give you all the answers you need: https://www.mercatus.org/research/data-visualizations/k-12-s...

Re: This is a teenager

#824

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See my highest level comment for a discussion of why blaming the family is intellectually lazy.

If all data sources indicate that domestic culture is the single biggest differentiator to educational attainment, who are you suggesting we blame besides the stewards of said domestic culture? Go to school, get good grades, don't borrow money, look after your health, get a job, be polite, pay your taxes - these are all the fundamentals of a good culture and are massively predictive of success. Lots of this advice is…

Domestic culture is important but you can't have one when both parents have to be out of the house for 10 hours a day to work.

Of course if we go back to a one income family women will be rather upset that they can't work any more.

So fuck the kids I guess.

Re: This is a teenager

#825
post #725

The punchline is this: "It's 2021. The research participants are in their late-30s now, which means they've had plenty of time to shape their own destinies. But we can clearly see that the experiences of their childhood had a huge effect on their financial situation as adults. It also has an effect on virtually everything else in their lives." You cannot infer the direction of causality from this data, i.e. that the…

Honestly I think the effect was hard to even see in the graphs at that point. It certainly wasn't "huge".

Completely agree - "bars" of people weren't scaled to the same width, and analysing it in only one dimension feels manipulative.

Re: This is a teenager

#826
post #786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bearing in mind we're talking about bullying here, which interventions are going to trample your fundamental civil rights? Unless we're going with a reductio ad absurdum panopticon solution, I can't think of any way in which more robust interventions in bullying would be a bad thing.

People have the right to be and to raise bullies as long as their behaviour is nonviolent. As tasteless as it is, there is no law against socially excluding and humiliating people. Nor should there be.

We have anti discrimination laws.

Re: This is a teenager

#827
post #818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Liberalism as an ideology can be derived from two axioms: 1) All people are moral equals 2) There is no moral oracle It follows from these that no person has a source of moral authority to impose their views on another. What gives you or anyone else the moral right to intervene in someone else's family, presumably by force, over their objections? This isn't a rhetorical question. I'm earnestly hoping for a clear answ…

> Liberalism as an ideology can be derived from two axioms Those axioms don't really create a consistent or substantial ethical universe. If I'm a serial killer and I say, "don't worry, we're all moral equals. You're just as entitled to kill me as I am to kill you," then I'm not violating your first principle. And if you were to respond, "killing like that is simply wrong," you'd be violating your second principle an…

Just want to say thank you for your comments here. Impressive writing and argumentation.

Re: This is a teenager

#828

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the environment is not the cause of the poor outcomes It's not the proximate cause, but that doesn't mean it is in no way causative. >and pointing out the cause shows a path to correcting the issue Yes, it can often be most efficient to address root causes.

Yes, it's causative in the same sense that the formation of our solar system eventually caused me to write this reply. And I agree that it's typically most efficient to address root causes, but there's a sleight of hand going on here. Note how your post correctly pointed out that environment influences a person's actions where I said poor impulse control causes poor outcomes. There are causal factors in both cases, b…

>it's causative in the same sense that the formation of our solar system eventually caused me to write this reply.

More like in the sense that smoking causes cancer.

Re: This is a teenager

#829
post #827
post #818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Liberalism as an ideology can be derived from two axioms Those axioms don't really create a consistent or substantial ethical universe. If I'm a serial killer and I say, "don't worry, we're all moral equals. You're just as entitled to kill me as I am to kill you," then I'm not violating your first principle. And if you were to respond, "killing like that is simply wrong," you'd be violating your second principle an…

Just want to say thank you for your comments here. Impressive writing and argumentation.

Thank you! That really makes my day.

Re: This is a teenager

#830

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of pre-industrialized peoples that smoked tobacco, drank alcohol, and did drugs recreationally. Were they too on hedonistic treadmills? It's funny how Americans love to brag about how they have the freedom to do whatever and pay less tax, but then turn around and treat their poor like fools if they live in any way that doesn't resemble soviet-era russia. This is the same thing boomers do when they te…

> Were they too on hedonistic treadmills? Yes. > It's funny how Americans love to brag about how they have the freedom to do whatever and pay less tax, but then turn around and treat their poor like fools if they live in any way that doesn't resemble soviet-era russia. You have things quite backwards, the stereotype of USSR and it's successor is large amounts of vodka and mindlessly wrestling bears. The USA added an…

> the stereotype of USSR and it's successor is large amounts of vodka and mindlessly wrestling bears

also lines for bread and austerity, that's what I mean

> I think citing internet memes is not a good plan.

while that example is memified, this is still a commonly held belief that I see reiterated almost daily (of course they're poor, they're buying iPhones! for example)

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