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The pro-Israel information war

jackpoulson.substack.com

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Re: The pro-Israel information war

#821

Post by theptip »

A1kmm wrote: post #521
jdross wrote: post #7

Pro-Palestinian views outrank Pro-Israeli online by around 36 to 1 on TikTok and 8 to 1 on other online platforms. https://twitter.com/antgoldbloom/status/1721561226151612602 If anything the skew within the platforms is to prioritize pro-palestinian views https://twitter.com/committeeonccp/status/173279243496103143... It also seems like these platforms create (rather than support) anti-Israeli views: https://twitter.…

I think the fundamental assumption of the analysis that there are two mutually exclusive groups, 'pro-Israel' and 'pro-Palestine' is flawed. It is possible to simultaneously support the interests of Palestinian and Israeli civilians (and support a peaceful Israel within the 1967 boundaries), while condemning the massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud (and other far right parties) and Hamas. I think it is cur…

The problem is, as we all discuss frequently around here, when it comes to this sort of issue social media is optimized to suppress nuance, boost controversial takes, and generate engagement through anger.

So there is a very real sense in which there _are_ two mutually exclusive groups. There is also a third group wishing for nuance and understanding and thoughtful discourse of the historical context, but that group gets coded as the “other” by both of the black-and-white groups.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#822

Post by dontlaugh »

ristlane wrote: post #391
dontlaugh wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hamas will only end along with the Zionist occupation.

To be clear, you mean the entire nation of Israel, correct?

The end result is up to the Palestinian people. All demand right of return and ending apartheid. Some want that done through the abolishing of Israel entirely, others through land swaps that allow two states to exist. What actually happens will depend on the relative balance of forces at the time.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#823

Post by proc0 »

bjourne wrote: post #513
proc0 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The videos of destruction and death in Gaza are far more horrific than corresponding videos in Israel Maybe you haven't seen enough of what happened in 10/7 then. I would rather get hit by a bomb then tortured to death in the most horrific way possible.

As of right now there are likely hundreds or thousands of Palestinians trapped under the rubble of their houses slowly suffocating or dying of dehydration. A process that takes days or weeks.

Nobody said that about the Germans during WW2, so I guess the disagreement is how bad the Hamas guys are.

And also we can't let them prove themselves to be as bad as the Nazis (if we start comparing numbers), it's about preventing it.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#824

Post by hackerlight »

mandmandam wrote: post #310
ReptileMan wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Criticizing Israel’s response is not anti-Semitism- it is literally just criticizing the response. Okay - then what should be Israel's response? For me what they are doing is the bare minimum with the minimum casualties from the options they have. Hamas is Gaza's government. Hamas has intertwined the civilian and the military infrastructure. Hamas has made sure that the civilian Palestinians will suffer if you targe…

Your comment is entirely regurgitated Israeli propaganda that has been repeatedly debunked. I'll be as polite as I can about this, and take it one step at a time. > Okay - then what should be Israel's response? The world has been clear about this. Stop killing civilians and treat Palestinians as humans with rights. > what they are doing is the bare minimum with the minimum casualties from the options they have. That'…

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what Israel should do from here. Presumably you want a ceasefire, but then what?

The problem from Israel's perspective regarding a ceasefire is that Hamas isn't just an ideology that can be charmed out of existence with good behavior. It's also an autocratic/theocratic government. These government structures don't go away even if the conditions that lead to their initial support are addressed, because they have a regime survival incentive to maintain power. For example, Iran. Some of the reasons (colonial interference) that caused the Iranian revolution are no longer there, but the governance structure is nevertheless perpetual because that's how autocracies work.

Maybe Hamas can moderate in the future, but this moderation historically has happened after the nationalist (and in this case, irredentist) aims are fulfilled, such as in Vietnam or with the IRA. I don't know if that can happen with the continued existence of Israel and lack of right of return, which, let's face it, it's a pipe dream, Jews will never accept being an ethnic minority after the last few thousand years of endless pogroms including from MENA countries, literal survival will always trump everything else. Right or wrong, that's the reality, and we only have reality to work with.

I lean towards the idea that Israel shouldn't invade but instead build a DMZ around Gaza to contain Hamas. While simultaneously sowing the seeds for peace in the next generation by withdrawing from the West Bank, and implementing a Marshall-like plan with oversight from the UN to lift the standard of living. Then hoping hoping the West Bank doesn't fall to Hamas in the power vacuum (and if it does, another DMZ around the West Bank might be a practically unfortunate necessity pending Hamas' moderation...).

Thoughts? I want to hear from the "ceasefire" people the practical steps required and what it may actually look like along with an assessment of where it can go wrong, and what should happen in the cases where it goes wrong.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#825

Post by markdown »

meowface wrote: post #656
IOT_Apprentice wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect you ignore the history of terrorism by Irgun and the bombing of the King David Hotel, which house the British military command. Menachem Begin was a key player in that attack & was extremely proud of it. Who are the modern day parties following in those footsteps? Why Likud, & Begin was a co-founder of that very party— now led by Netanyahu.

I wasn't ignorant of it - that's why I said "any modern Israeli party". I'm aware past Israeli/Zionist groups have engaged in terrorism and in some cases deliberate civilian massacres. As far as I know Likud hasn't within the past 50 years.

What do you call what's going on right now, if not deliberate civilian massacres in order to get to relative handful of fighters hiding amongst them?

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#826

Post by markdown »

meowface wrote: post #656
IOT_Apprentice wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect you ignore the history of terrorism by Irgun and the bombing of the King David Hotel, which house the British military command. Menachem Begin was a key player in that attack & was extremely proud of it. Who are the modern day parties following in those footsteps? Why Likud, & Begin was a co-founder of that very party— now led by Netanyahu.

I wasn't ignorant of it - that's why I said "any modern Israeli party". I'm aware past Israeli/Zionist groups have engaged in terrorism and in some cases deliberate civilian massacres. As far as I know Likud hasn't within the past 50 years.

What do you call what's going on right now, if not deliberate civilian massacres in order to get to relative handful of freedom-fighters/terrorists hiding amongst them?

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#827

Post by hodgesrm »

YZF wrote: post #644
IOT_Apprentice wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect you ignore the history of terrorism by Irgun and the bombing of the King David Hotel, which house the British military command. Menachem Begin was a key player in that attack & was extremely proud of it. Who are the modern day parties following in those footsteps? Why Likud, & Begin was a co-founder of that very party— now led by Netanyahu.

I think dang made a mistake by allowing this topic onto HN. Nothing good is going to come out of that. Begin is rolling in his grave as we speak. There is nothing between today's Likud and any historic version of that party. That's one thing. The Likud (under the leadership of Sharon, who is also rolling in his grave) is also the party that withdrew from Gaza and handed it to the Palestinian Authority, dismantling se…

> I think dang made a mistake by allowing this topic onto HN. Nothing good is going to come out of that.

Actually I find the discussion on HN has brought up many useful insights on a complex conflict that provokes emotional responses. It's a model that many other communities could learn from.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#828

Post by kundi »

I find it incredibly fascinating that some of the 1000 smartest people on internet are discussing if apple looks like orange, and if orange looks more like apple.

Instead of building things and relationships (which according to our very humble observation can be more fulfilling than building billion dollar companies), the culture as it is (and you can figure out which) is still today so attached to the ideas and conceptions that no longer serve humans and their fulfillment, living in times where no-one should be lacking anything.

If we start discussing if blocking water and food is can be excused by any God or highest of the dearest reason, then we should ask ourselves who brought these leaders to their positions and what is the fundamental flaw in the unfortunate human psyche.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#829

Post by bluish29 »

ac130kz wrote: post #704
jakelazaroff wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a long list of Israeli politicians and military officers who have declared their intent to massacre civilians: - Israeli Prime Minister (!!) Benjamin Netanyahu: "You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember." [1] - IDF spokesman Daniel Hagari: "we're focused on what causes maximum damage" [2] - Israeli defense Minister Yoav Gallant: "I have ordered a complete siege on…

[flagged]

> PS this is funny, instead of replying this guy just downvotes. Why? Because it's the truth.

I understand your karma doesn't allow you to down vote yet. But FYI you cannot down vote replies on your comments. So it is not funny, it is just not true.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#830

Post by seb1204 »

mhalberstram wrote: post #610
grumple wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I could not confirm your claim that Hamas called for murdering Jews globally. Could you please share a source? My feeling is that media controlled by people - like TikTok - tend to be pro-Palestinian, whereas media controlled by institutions tend to be pro-Israeli (with the exception of the majority of ONGs and human right organizations). > it gets amplified by 1.8 billion people whose holy book calls for attacks on…

My working theory is that pro-palestine contents is creating more clicks/advertisement revenue thus the algorithms prefer it.
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