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Why I Left Rust

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Re: Why I Left Rust

#821

Post by parabyl »

shrimp_emoji wrote: post #657
parabyl wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think moreso than specifically meaning JeanHeyd was target as such due to race, the implication was rather that since JeanHeyd had previously raised that the lack of diveristy in speakers at the conf. was an issue, some members voting on this may have held onto that. But, it's ironic (and sad) that the same person who raised the issue of diversity in speakers - who would have been the first PoC doing a keynote - wa…

PoC feeling like language from an era long past when

An 'era long passed' perhaps? Can't quite figure that one out. I think I was looking for the term 'bygone era' but couldn't think of it.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#822

Post by riwsky »

nindalf wrote: post #792
riwsky wrote: post #782

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re missing the distinction here between incompetence and malice. One member of leadership acted maliciously; the fact that they were successful indicates that leadership as a whole was missing some controls (formal or otherwise). The latter party is analogous to whichever engineer accidentally brought down prod, whom our post-mortems should not blame—but the former is not. If some dirtbag got angry about being pa…

I agree with everything you said. I think you meant to write this to the other person. They kept trying to blame the entirety of leadership for a leadership failure and suggests “picking better leaders”. I, like you, suggested that the process needs to be improved but I’m not sure how.

Ahhhhhh, legit, sorry. I’d read “whoever is responsible for this needs to go” as referring to only the malicious party—but “better leaders” does indeed suggest the GP wants multiple heads to roll.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#823

Post by phpisthebest »

Mimmy wrote: post #816
phpisthebest wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the very beginning Rust was a political movement first, and a programming lang second. People seemed to have forgotten some of the early events from years ago when Rust was less popular. >>The Rust project needs to stamp this out before it begins to fester It has been there since the formation of the Lang, it is built into the DNA of the community. people that want technical merits to shine are the ones trying t…

Rust was a political movement first? Can you elaborate?

In many ways it is a "you had to be there" type of thing...

If you were around the internet when Rust was first being formed at Mozilla, understanding the history there and the transition of Mozilla from a pure tech company to a political organization is part of the story as well

I will say my first introduction to Rust was not as a programming lang, but was one of the many many many posts around the internet at the time where the founder and other core members were defending their CoC, and talking about how they were more focus on the "behavior" of developers than on the code, or technical merits of programming.

Rust has always been more about about controlling human behaviors (i.e politics) than it about controlling computers.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#824

Post by yodelshady »

TRiG_Ireland wrote: post #813
More-nitors wrote: post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this whole "woke" mentality is going out of hand too fast... I mean, someone bullying some veterans/old men because they're "woke and feminist" isn't going to earn any sympathy from me. nowadays... "woke" just means "I'm better than you (so I can/will do things that are otherwise unacceptable to you)" ...I think we chose the wrong word. Rather than "woke", it should have been "NO BULLYING" -- which includes all thing…

Generally, these days "woke" is a word that regressive bullying assholes use to insult people.

It definitely strikes me as thought-terminating cliche. If people were calling themselves woke maybe, but I've only seen it as pejorative for several years.

I don't think it's fair to entirely dismiss either, there really is a lot of incredibly toxic behaviour in communities labelled "woke" (and agreeing with further up the chain, I can't help but feel being a bit less "inclusive" and demanding some commitment to the product might help, gatekeeping be damned). But we should strive to accurately describe what those behaviours are.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#825

Post by dennis_jeeves1 »

LouisSayers wrote: post #468
brokenkebaby wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Rust members were "uncomfortable" with this purely technical viewpoint - not their behavior, personal beliefs, or even their demographic? Claim of "feeling uncomfortable" was invented to be a tool of political fighting which allows to declare something, or somebody as unacceptable, completely avoiding debates. As it's becoming generally normalized, it's absolutely logical that it spills into other fields of human in…

This is like a modern day version of "they're a witch!", with the towns people rallying behind to burn them at the stake.

True, human behavior is actually nearly identical, then and now. Superstition, religion etc. have new avatars that may bear little resemblance to their ancestors, but they are all well and alive in their new forms.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#826

Post by Capricorn2481 »

bobsmooth wrote: post #685
Capricorn2481 wrote: post #663

The irony of people in this thread bemoaning humanity, how we can't all just get along, while simultaneously blasting "woke" politics is palpable

"Woke" is not caring about people. "Woke" is tricking others into thinking you care about people.

My point was not that Woke is inherently good, but that you're shitting on other people while whining that they shit on you back.

These anti-woke people really are the biggest whiners in the room while pretending otherwise. If you're so triggered by black mermaids, how is anybody gonna take you fucking seriously. We act like Tech is insulating leftwingers from the world, but it really does the same for the whole political spectrum. If you stare at a computer all day and don't take care of yourself, you're gonna overreact to everything in the world.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#827

Post by AmenBreak »

toadi wrote: post #783
jaegerpicker wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been involved with Software Development for over 20 years started with VB6 and some perl/python in 1998. I saw the "informal code of conduct" and it never worked. What really happened: many people were treating terribly and most of it was swept under the rug. CoC were created for valid and good reasons. I'm not defending the Rust community here, it seems childish to me. The past is not what you are trying to cla…

I am an older geek. I never got the CoC against sexual harassments. It is f*cking illegal. Should be reported to the police and taken care of by the actual laws. Coc seems like a law thing but who is enforcing it? Laws you have democratic elected people voting which laws, you have police checking if people follow them, courts giving out punishment. See they are 3 separate entities for a reason. Coc is written by the…

Sexual harrassment isn't necessarily illegal, it's so loosely defined.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#828

Post by auggierose »

riwsky wrote: post #822
nindalf wrote: post #792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with everything you said. I think you meant to write this to the other person. They kept trying to blame the entirety of leadership for a leadership failure and suggests “picking better leaders”. I, like you, suggested that the process needs to be improved but I’m not sure how.

Ahhhhhh, legit, sorry. I’d read “whoever is responsible for this needs to go” as referring to only the malicious party—but “better leader s ” does indeed suggest the GP wants multiple heads to roll.

You read it right the first time. I am just referring to the malicious party. By saying "better leaders" I mean get rid of the malicious part of your leadership. That will result in a better leadership, thus "better leaders". I must admit, maybe I am expressing myself a bit too mathematical here.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#829

Post by tialaramex »

hnfong wrote: post #819
tialaramex wrote: post #795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"somewhat" is a strange word to use in this context and probably warrants more explanation. Are you perhaps a child immigrant, and so you have a few early years of exposure in an environment with Cantonese everywhere and then moved somewhere else? Yes an English Wikipedia article will tend to cite English text on the subject, because the assumption would be that it's mostly being read by people in English so text wri…

Ah yes. It's strange but I can explain. Cantonese is a bit different from the "standard" Mandarin Chinese, so that's one factor. I also grew up in a very bilingual environment in Hong Kong, and had a short stint living abroad during my younger years (I started primary school in Australia, so I basically learned to write in English before I learned to write in Chinese.) My schooling is like 80% in English, and even to…

Thanks for explaining what you meant by "somewhat". One of the people whose opinion about JFK's quote gets a lot of play is Victor Mair, Victor thinks it'd be better to focus on teaching Pinyin rather than get Chinese kids to invest so heavily in the Han writing system which makes alphabetic systems look trivial - and if you're willing I'd be interested in what you think of that as somebody who learned the Latin alphabetic writing system (for English) first, but was heavily exposed to spoken Cantonese much before that.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#830

Post by unusualmonkey »

bybybyby wrote: post #602
unusualmonkey wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can be an effective leader with bad optics. See Elon musk. I'd argue part of what made Musk's companies so successful was the optics - he was seen as a visionary, building the future - ergo customers and engineers alike wanted to associate with him. Since the decline in his optics over the last few years, has he been an effective leader? Twitter does not seem to support that notion.

Didn't he save Twitter from total bankruptcy? That's effective imo. Still SpaceX and Tesla are examples of effectiveness overall. He may not have been effective in all his ventures but for the majority he has been effective. I'd say going into space and creating an effective electric car product is more than optics.

> Didn't he save Twitter from total bankruptcy?

Did he? I see no evidence Twitter was at risk of total bankruptcy before he bought it.

> Still SpaceX and Tesla are examples of effectiveness overall

Which reinforces my point - both were formed and successful while Elon had good optics.

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