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What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

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Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#821

Post by raxxorraxor »

juliendorra wrote: post #765
AussieWog93 wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I continue to hear sexist comments from people who never would have said those sorts of things just five years ago. As a man in tech, I've been a part of countless hush-hush conversations that would never be repeated within earshot of a woman or untrusted man. It's as grim as you say, and worse. I'm really sorry that things have become like this.

What do you mean by "things have become like this"? I obviously don’t know your age but the software industry (and other fields) has been extremely sexist since decades (at least the 80s). The efforts to explicitly reign in the sexism in tech are quite recent (late 2000, early 2010, and even later in France where I live). My point is that what you perceive as a recent reaction might be the same old sexist culture con…

I have a different experience and believe that tech fields are extremely egalitarian. This might not apply to the specific regions like SV where tech and status often intermingles, don't know much about the situation there. There is probably also a difference between countries.

There are some very opinionated engineers, but they are an exception and quite rare. They might bark a little from time to time but it doesn't have any real repercussions.

Sure, if you are one of the few women in tech, you might face some difficulties getting into established groups, but that isn't due to sexism for the most part. Far more often it is some misplaced courtesy or something else in my experience.

Compared to medicine for example, tech is pretty harmless. Medicine has a lot of women, but that doesn't mean much. Surgeons for example are know to have their elitist clubs and it often is exclusively men. I have yet to hear similar "locker room talk" or what you call it in any tech circle. Probably exists but it has to be quite rare.

To my knowledge the diagnosis for tech was pretty much that there are far more men here. But that isn't indicative of sexism. So I don't understand what you mean by "extremely sexist" at all.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#822

Post by philwelch »

feoren wrote: post #742
nonethewiser wrote: post #695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that statistic even important to you? If it's about solving poverty then judge by how impoverished someone is, not their skin color. But it also shouldn't be surprising. There are almost 6x as many white people in the US as black people. Poverty rates amongst white people is about half of black people. Do the math.

> There are almost 6x as many white people in the US as black people. Poverty rates amongst white people is about half of black people. You've given the exact reason why your statement is a completely useless red herring. Say there was a minority in the U.S., the Romulans. Let's say literally every single Romulan in the U.S. was impoverished due to hundreds of years of systemic, intentional racism. But there's only,…

You have to resort to science fiction references to obscure the fact that middle-class and wealthy black people exist in this country.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#823

Post by raxxorraxor »

dijonman2 wrote: post #575
paperwasp42 wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I also worry that this nonsense will erode support for the kind of diversity I do defend, or worse, prompt some kind of revanchist backlash against visible minorities in general. As a women in tech, I am feeling the backlash. I have seen a huge increase in the amount of skepticism of my abilities that I face from people who haven't worked with me before. And the worst part of it is that there's actually logic behin…

As a hiring manager I have substantial pressure to hire incompetent people to meet quotas. I confronted my recruiter in front of witnesses and was partially shunned. I have been hiring for many years, and I truly pay no attention to gender or ethnicity. Now I am forced to. It’s an insult to those who earned their position. It’s an insult to me as I am less and less likely to get a new job because I won’t fit quotas.…

> Now I am forced to.

You should think about legal recourse here. If this isn't stomped out it can result in real racism pretty quickly. It has to, because people aren't treated fairly and it creates adversary between people of different skin color.

This is bad management that needs to be replaced.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#824

Post by raxxorraxor »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #817
Dig1t wrote: post #382

I work at a different FAANG and it seems like more and more the only news that we get from corporate is related to DEI. Also a lot of hiring details are now hidden from ICs. It used to be that you would be apart of the interview panel as an interviewer and then you would get together with your team afterwards and everyone on the team would vote yes/no and that would pretty much be it. Now it’s made by a manager elsew…

> worry that my kids won’t be diverse enough to be able to get into a decent school or get a good job like I was able to when they’re older That is wildly optimistic. Next they will come for your already taxed wealth and money if you aren’t “diverse” enough. People in the US need to be more aware of similar trajectories in other countries in the past.

You are optimistic. Even countries that had problems with this exact same issue are currently repeating the error by the letter. Case in point Germany. We now have sex quotas, won't take long for racial quotas be established. Shitty and dumb country, didn't learn a lot. And like any totalitarian movement before there is no reasoning possible and will at some point probably derail.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#825

Post by rjbwork »

ryan93 wrote: post #192
OrangeMonkey wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your statement is the issue. If you have two equally qualified candidates - one anglo saxan male from boston, and one african american female from georgia - at many places, one is going to be consistently chosen. I agree - that is absolutely bias based on protected characteristics. Do you?

Evidence that one is going to be consistently chosen?

While I do think GP is correct at many places, my team literally hired a black woman from Georgia and turned down a white dude from Boston, lol. I am not a fan of the overbearing top down policies like Microsoft is talking about, but I have become friendly with aforementioned hire, and some of the stories of discrimination and just people being really rude to her in the professional world are mind blowing to me. I can definitely believe that a lot of workplaces do actively discriminate against various minority groups.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#826

Post by throwoutway »

psd1 wrote: post #737
torstenvl wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone knows that's a goddamn lie. I almost want to cry when I read that "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. His heart sank as he thought of the enormous power arrayed against him." Racism is anti-racist. Objective thinking is biased. Burning down cities is mostly peaceful protest.

Quoted post unavailable.

I think the poster is referencing current events as paradoxical or hypocritical, not supporting them.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#827

Post by philwelch »

feoren wrote: post #750
PathOfEclipse wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should read some Thomas Sowell. He should help cure you of your "cosmic justice" aspirations. https://www.amazon.com/Quest-Cosmic-Justice-Thomas-Sowell/dp... https://www.amazon.com/Discrimination-Disparities-Thomas-Sow... https://www.amazon.com/Black-Rednecks-Liberals-Thomas-Sowell... https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Poverty-Politics-Thomas-Sowell... The very idea that, in a just world, outcomes along various lines…

> The very idea that, in a just world, outcomes along various lines of demarcation between groups of humans would be roughly even has zero evidence to support it. Actually it has as much evidence as you have time. Take a big bag of fair dice, and split them randomly into two groups. Actually, split them however you want, whatever "lines of demarcation" you choose. Then roll them and apply literally any measure of lit…

If you maintain any sort of ethnic distinction, the consequence of that is going to be a divergence of cultural values and practices that leads to different outcomes. In the 1940’s, the United States deliberately assembled the greatest collection of scientific minds available to them to invent the first atomic bombs; for some reason, the most overrepresented ethnic group in that project were Hungarian Jews. This was not a time of great philo-Semitic or pro-Hungarian sentiment among American elites; it just worked out that way. In fact, the America of that time was so threatened by Jewish overperformance that universities adopted de facto anti-Semitic quotas in their admissions process; East Asians experience similar discrimination do today.

You aren’t wrong to think black Americans are the victims of systemic racism; the problem is that most the “systemic racism” that operates today is an unintended consequence of well-meaning liberal policies, as Sowell has discussed for decades now.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#828

Post by raxxorraxor »

telltruth wrote: post #657
Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming you’re right and not unfairly discounting people who look or think different due to your prejudices, this just hurts mega-businesses profitability right? What’s the measurable material harm to you exactly? Can you prove it or do you just feel it? Still assuming you’re right, and not prejudiced, why is giving historically disadvantaged people a crutch to lean on so bad? Won’t at least some of them thrive and…

Big tech profitability does not get hurt by hiring mediocre people. They are post-talent businesses. They do not depend on tech talent to drive and keep profit margins but rather depend on established monopoly and maintaining barrier-to-entry to continue their profitability. They show their growth by simply showing more ads or hiking subscription prices or through more sales people - not by developing new ground brea…

> post-talent businesses.

He, this seems to be quite accurate. I wonder how companies come up with that blindness. Internal politics?

I don't believe you have to be the best hacker to start a successful business at all, but some companies try to go out of their way to make working there unattractive.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#829

Post by datavirtue »

ParetoOptimal wrote: post #785
Octabrain wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to have to say something this obvious but here it goes: Discriminating against a group of human beings for an arbitrary detail such as the color of the skin is indeed racist. No matter if that human being is a freaking north-europe-blonde-arian-white or whatever. No matter if that human being is or not opressed or whatever. Judging people by the color of the skin is WRONG. This ideological bullshit that US is…

It is racist, but it's not the same kind of racist backed by 200 plus years of systematic oppression.

Oh, it's a different kind of racism. Such a relief.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#830

Post by raxxorraxor »

rizzaxc wrote: post #751
bitti wrote: post #727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I share your concern... Started as a manager in a successful scale-up and as usual our engineering staff is white & male (we are hiring from European Timezone). In order to secure the funding round, the higher management has introduced a diversity targets, which is driven aggressively by HR. Funny enough lots of the European laws forbid asking if the candidate is a member of an "unrepresented" group, so I guess we'll…

hold up you need DIE to convince investors? how does this make sense; wouldn't they be more concerned about your company's cold, hard numbers?

Depends on the investors but allegedly it is widely spread. And if you want lucrative government contracts, you have to implement it. I think it is overwhelmingly driven by government. Didn't find enough racism so they needed to create it.
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