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“Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

nature.com

821–830 of 883 posts

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#821

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1972 people with horrific treatable diseases were being lied to, so that science could record exactly how they suffered and died: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study And that's what led to ethics rules that said you can't do that. You'd think you wouldn't need to write it down, but we did and we do. > By then, 28 patients had died directly from syphilis, 100 died from complications related to s…

I know about Tuskegee. That's a clear example of what not to do. Just one of many documented cases of criminal abuse of human beings. Stuff like this is the reason why informed consent is an absolute requirement these days. What I meant to say is I'd think twice before telling a depressed patient with a history of suicide attempts about a diagnosis of terminal illness.

Assisted suicide could be a completely rational choice, at that point [1]. It would be a choice that you, or anyone else, could not dictate.

1. https://www.statista.com/statistics/792317/medical-condition...

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#822

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is one very common case where people abort fetuses because of reasons that are not "saving the child from worse prospects". This is people not wanting girls because "girls are economic and social liabilities and boys are assets". In my country, sex-selective abortion has been so prevalent that doctors now don't tell parents the sex of the fetus. If they did, very quickly would there be a difference of millions…

The more western equivalent of this is screening for Down's Syndrome. In certain countries, essentially all Down's babies are aborted. (98% in Denmark, for example)

I don’t know if you have relatives or children with Down’s, but it is no walk in the park.

Forcing parents to have disabled kids is not good policy either.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know the people behind statments like these are coming to it with extremly unintelligent and bad faith definitions and intentions, but the actual words are actually correct. If you had the option to delay humanity's discovery of atomic bombs to late 20th century or after, and therefore delay any substantial deep understanding of the atomic physics beneath, you would probably do it. If you had the atomic bomb, you p…

> e.g. if climate is already worsening beyond human limits it's always good to know even Climate wouldn't have been worsened as much as it did without the technological advances provided by science. It's really, really difficult to cut the Amazonian forrest down using just axes and horse-drawn carts, but once you got mechanised stuff (with the help of science) then it becomes exponentially easier to do it (think just…

> how come some of us still believe science and technology can get us out of this mess when it was science and technology that brought us here.

I can't understand the logic here. The progress of science isn't somehow dead. The problem is our priorities.

For an example, the US just sent $50 billion to Ukraine. Imagine what 50, $1,000,000,000 science grants could accomplish.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#825
post #450

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This alarmist comparison of yours would impress basically no one who has studied in relevant fields, such as bioethics. The relationship between ethics and research has a fascinating and sobering history, one full of richness, horror, and a good deal of quiet ego shattering awe at all the multitude of different ways of being human we have previously organised to eradicate. The calls you see for greater attention to b…

If a group has power to prevent other people from writing or saying things about them that they do not like, even otherwise legitimate scientific findings in a scientific journal, I would say it is proof that they DO have power. Kind of like how Putin and Xi are able to prevent citizens in their respective countries to write bad things about them. > Would we allow terminating pregnancy on the basis that the parents d…

I feel like you've interpreted my comment mainly by the diving into the ethical content of the specific example I was using.

The point of my example, if I was unclear, was that ethical questions very demonstrably arise from scientific discovery, and demonstrably arise from the availability of technology. This point should be considered pretty hard to dispute. That being the case, when we see scientists getting together among themselves to try to better establish what responsibilities they have or do not have, that's broadly a good thing.

Could such a policy be misused in a bad way? Sure, absolutely, do doubt it could. But to me it seems historically illiterate that so many readers here immediately picture that "scientists decide they should have an ethics policy" could be used in harmful ways but these same readers struggle to picture that scientific discoveries themselves or technologies relating to these could also be used in harmful ways, and if so, whether that places ethical obligations on anybody at any point.

Perhaps, too, it ought to be considered that "scientists shouldn't decide to develop an ethics policy" is also a position itself, one that could also pretty obviously be used in harmful ways as well.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#826
post #799
post #790

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Humans do not have biological race" is correct if and only if you change the definition of "race" to whatever definition these academics have made up expressly to make the statement true. If you use any definition that wasn't specifically concocted to make the statement true (i.e. any definition used by normal people or by actual scientists doing real work, say prior to 1990), it remains false.

What is the implication here, that geneticists decided in 1990 to pack in "real work" in order to work up a grand conspiracy to wipe out an entire concept?

No, I'm just guessing that the inflection point of productive scientists being financially displaced by useless academia career optimizers was some time in the last few decades.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#827

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need the government to protect us from a lot of things that can harm us.

The next step then is the government deciding what will harm us, so we can be protected. And then you got a very nice little fascist country that runs perfectly, and the trains run on time to move all those harmful people away from where good people live. Out of sight, out of mind.

The government already decides that. That’s what laws are. Why are you speaking rhetorically?

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#828
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a trend on the political left right now that basically equates speech directly with violence (e.g. asking whether a man is capable of getting pregnant is violence) I must admit I have not seen an argument like this outside of a strawman characterization.

https://youtu.be/uU7nzwbJ-Hk?t=41 Here is a good example: > "I want to recognize that your line of questioning is transphobic and opens trans people up to violence" This is a US senator and a Berkeley law professor talking in court.

She didn't say the words were themselves violence, which was the original claim. She said that transphobia opens trans people to violence. Those are different things.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#829

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In philosophy good is known as a simple notion, that is it cannot be reduced further That is the position of some philosophers – it is G. E. Moore's famous doctrine that the good is simple, undefinable, irreducible to anything non-ethical – which Moore defended through his "open question argument", a staple of undergraduate introductory courses on the philosophy of ethics. However, it is worth pointing out that far…

Having been brought up on G.E. Moore's Principia Ethica not to mention the work of Russell and Whitehead I'd have to say what I said as a first-pass comment. However I agree with you, things are never quite as simple as they seem when one grinds them fine, also time and ideas move on. In discussions such as this I like to use the analogy of Newton's Laws of Motion which after hundreds of years still work well for 'ev…

> In discussions such as this I like to use the analogy of Newton's Laws of Motion which after hundreds of years still work well for 'everyday' use but they're all but useless in other endeavors such as our phones' GPS - to get there we had to progress through Lagrangian and Hamiltonian mechanics to Relativity over several hundred years. The same applies to philosophy and philosophical argument and it's why I find it so interesting.

This is where I don't agree. Philosophy and physics are very different.

In physics, at some point certain major theories become established and universally accepted. Pretty much all physicists accept Einstein's theories of relativity as correct–up to the limits of our current ability to test them.

By contrast, in philosophy, professional consensus is vastly more elusive than in physics. The same debates rage from generation and generation, without ever coming to any clear resolution. This is especially true when it comes to highly controversial areas such as ethics:

Are moral statements cognitive or non-cognitive? If cognitive, is their truth objective or subjective? If objective, is the ground of their objectivity natural, non-natural, or supernatural? And, if their truth is objective, which proposed normative ethical theory best approximates that truth: Utilitarianism? (Act, rule or preference?) Deontology? Virtue ethics? Natural law theory? Some combination of two or more of them? Something else entirely?

Philosophy, as a field, is nowhere near reaching consensus on those questions, and consensus seems just as far away now as it did a century ago, and will probably seem just as distant a century from now.

That's not to say no issues ever get resolved. The IEP reports [0] that "...philosophers seem to have reached a consensus... that indirect doxastic voluntarism is true" – and I have no reason to doubt its report. But indirect doxastic voluntarism (that we have some measure of indirect voluntary control over what we believe) is not an especially interesting doctrine. The far more interesting question of direct doxastic voluntarism (whether, at least in some cases, we have the ability to make a direct voluntary choice of what to believe) – is as disputed as it ever was.

Another example of a resolved issue – during the 1950s and early 1960s, logical positivism was enormously popular in (Anglophone) academic philosophy. However, consensus was soon reached that, at least in its classical "meaningfulness is verifiability" formulation, it is a self-refuting position – by the 1970s, essentially everyone had moved on from it, and that consensus has endured from then until now. So, at least occasionally, professional consensus can emerge either that (a) some minor theory is true, or (b) some major theory is false. But consensus on the truth of major theories seems to perennially escape us – quite unlike the case of physics.

> rather it's the milieu in which they're now operating which is seemingly putting strictures on what they do. Like fashion, a set of cultural boundary conditions is determining what they actually do in practice. (BTW, I accept with Academia in the horrible state it's currently in at present that challenge is more than unusually difficult.)

One philosopher might be a moral anti-realist, who believes that morality is simply a subjective expression of emotional attitudes. Another may be a moral realist, yet be convinced that morality can be objectively defined in terms of some theory of the natural sciences (such as evolutionary psychology). A third may be a divine command theorist, convinced that morality can be objectively defined as obeying God's will (as revealed in the Bible or Quran or whatever). All three have reasons to reject Moore's positions, but those reasons are rather different in each case. So the fact that Moore's position is widely disputed, is not a sign of "groupthink". (For what it's worth, I personally think Moore is mostly right–but I know there are many philosophers who disagree.)

> There's more than a hint of postmodernism in your response.

I don't agree. I don't have much sympathy for postmodernism – which is itself somewhat of a vague term, but it is generally associated either with doubt about the existence of objective truth, or else the claim that we are fundamentally unable to know what it is even if it does exist. Whereas, contra postmodernism, I am quite convinced that objective truth exists, and that we do not have any fundamental disability in knowing it – even in philosophy.

My motivation was simply that, if someone says "discipline X says Y", that can be reasonably taken as saying "discipline X has a professional consensus that Y"–which I know in this case to be false. If you had couched your point, not in terms of unqualified "philosophy", but simply as being one philosophical theory, or philosophical school, or individual philosopher (Moore) – I probably would not have replied.

[0] https://iep.utm.edu/doxastic-voluntarism/

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#830

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next step then is the government deciding what will harm us, so we can be protected. And then you got a very nice little fascist country that runs perfectly, and the trains run on time to move all those harmful people away from where good people live. Out of sight, out of mind.

The government already decides that. That’s what laws are. Why are you speaking rhetorically?

And as time progresses, new laws are no longer common sense ("don't steal, don't murder"), but become increasingly cumbersome, while still acceptable ("don't drive a vehicle unless we license you for vehicle use") and ultimately problematic ("You can't own sulphuric acid"). Before too long, laws become criminal, and those must not be obeyed ("You have to believe this or that, or at least shut up about what you really think, because doing otherwise may hurt people").

Too many laws make everyone a criminal, for eventually, everyday, innocent behaviour becomes criminalised.

When you arrive at thoughtcrime, it already is too late.

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