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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

mitadmissions.org

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#821

Post by chii »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #696
tomatowurst wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what do you think about people who claim standardized test is systematic racism? standardized test is the only way to measure somebody on their aptitude for doing well like the LSAT. yet somehow asian americans being discriminated at ivy leagues even with good standardized test score is not seen as systematic racism.

Standardized test largely reflect reality, and reality has racial inequities. They don't measure human potential at Birth and don't try to.

the inequalities could be caused by racial discrimination (bring born in a black household, you're more likely to have issues than a white household, statistically). Inequalities could also be caused by other factors, unrelated to racism.

The tests measure certain cognitive capabilities. Genes have an effect, nutrient intake has an effect, nurture has an effect. Trying to fix racism via test scores (or disregarding it) isn't going to help fix racism.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#822

Post by fsckboy »

danielheath wrote: post #673
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The notion of a "well rounded student" ... > is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture First of all, I don't know what "blue blood WASP culture" is. Explain that please. Second, there's nothing wrong with expecting students to participate in extra-curricular activities like music and art as a basis for admission. MIT is still going to evaluate those things.

Selecting for students whose parents can afford formal music, art and sport lessons is selecting for wealth. Having extra-curriculars you can document costs money and time. Poor kids are getting 'well rounded' by spending summer break at work, saving enough money to survive the school year.

If you get great test scores, and you go to a school that does not send many students to the ivy leagues et al, you will get noticed; this helps a lot of smart low SES urban or rural students gain entry.

> spending summer break at work, saving enough money

is going to count in your favor

if you go to a competitive high school that sends lots of kids to top universities, then you need to stack up your extra-curriculars to stand out wrt all the other kids in a similar position

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#823

Post by lightup »

muh_gradle wrote: post #605
lightup wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He applied to [redacted] State, Rice, UNC, Duke, and U of MN - Twin Cities. Accepted at [redacted] State (they have a formula for everyone). He also got their highest out of state "scholarship" - which is more like a break on out of state tuition - no reciprocity with MN. No word from Duke yet but that probably won't happen either. Complete disaster for his future and really a shot to his otherwise happy and optimist…

Your son and I had really similar stats in high school. I also didn't do well in college admissions, but that was mostly due to my poor strategic decisions and affirmative action (I'm Asian). I would really emphasize that transfers are 100% legitimate avenues for him to take. It just requires immediate planning and dedication now.

Thank you

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#824

Post by [deleted] »

fsckboy wrote: post #765

as an MIT alum, a wealthy one who thought he would leave his fortune to MIT, I applaud this move, but it doesn't get me back to giving. MIT shouldn't have stopped requiring the tests in the first place, shouldn't have participated in that anti-intellectual "shut down tech" day or whatever that was, and shouldn't have done a dozen other things like cancel speakers to bow to a woke mob. MIT needs to sign up to the Chic…

[deleted]

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#825

Post by chii »

whatshisface wrote: post #658
aj7 wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, prestigious schools open a huge number of doors. But more importantly, they teach elite mannerisms, standards and beliefs, and prejudices. If you are not a true genius (true geniuses can always make their way, but they are rare, even at MIT et al), this knowledge is invaluable and irreplaceable. I’ll give you an example from my own career. I went to MIT/Berkeley, SB/PhD. But I practically washed out of grad scho…

What defines true genius?

someone like Srinivasa Ramanujan. True genius needs to be found, identified and nurtured. If they are born in a poor household, there would not be as big an opportunity to identify them, and society would be poorer for it.

Therefore, society should look to try and identify them, and spend resources to get them to flourish.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#826

Post by karthickgururaj »

The question is, should a university a. maximize for absolute value of success of its alums (for some definition of "success"), or b. maximize for the value it adds to the student (and hence the society) by considering the difference in the said measure as a result of the student joining the univ.

(a) is easier to measure and optimize for. But it will select for students who will do well in later life - irrespective of what the univ has to offer. The univ's entrance criteria will exhibit this bias. Of course, some biases can be explicitly countered - by having a quota system for those with less privilege. But in each of those subsets, the univ still tries to maximize for absolute success of the individual.

(b) is harder to measure - as it seeks to quantify the portion of individual's success that can be attributed to the univ specifically.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#827

Post by aj7 »

fmajid wrote: post #729
rayiner wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. That is not to say that I think only test scores should matter. But the kinds of extracurriculars colleges value—in particular that they don’t value having a job or working in the farm—smacks of old money ideals.

> The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. More precisely it was first invented by Yale to limit the number of Jewish students admitted, and was later repurposed to limit the number of Asian students admitted.

Exactly. If you’re really intellectually bright and committed, all those extracurricular activities, populated by average students, are a total waste of time. Regardless of anything they say, MIT and Cal Tech have prospered precisely by ignoring that crap, and giving preference to people who can do the work.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#828

Post by lightup »

sarchertech wrote: post #807
lightup wrote: post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong. https://blog.prepscholar.com/how-many-people-get-a-34-35-36-... 36 = 4,100 students 35 = 12,000 students Slightly less than 50k. UMN app has no essay or anything like that. Your disbelief is your intuition which is that something here is wrong. In the words of Principal Skinner, "It must be the children."

There's no essay, and no test scores? They base it solely on GPA?

They use Common App. Here's the requirements: https://admissions.tc.umn.edu/apply/application-checklist/ap... Yeppers. Insane in the membrane. Now surf their site and see if you can find merit scholarships. That's a fun one too.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#829

Post by tomc1985 »

sparrc wrote: post #551
outlace wrote: post #470

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I h…

100% agreed. I could also buy a test prep book on amazon plus get a few others from the school and public libraries for a grand total of $15 spent on test prep. That's a lot cheaper than dedicating my working summer to smarmy volunteer/extra-curricular projects.

What is the point of these tests if people can just test prep their way through it? The result is not indicative of their true selves, it is simply yet another horrible facade.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#830

Post by Robotbeat »

danans wrote: post #440
gmadsen wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is the implied meaning of "quite telling". Many institutions hastily removed SAT scores due to social pressure that standardized tests weren't effective or equitable, while the data shows the opposite

> due to social pressure that standardized tests weren't effective or equitable Effectiveness and equity shouldn't be confused. The tests are effective for assessing academic preparedness. However, there is a strong argument that they aren't equitable. MIT isn't claiming here that SAT/ACT are equitable. They are just claiming that they are a valuable data point in addition to other factors that they consider to deal…

They are claiming that it’s maybe helpful for being more equitable than the other measures.
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