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The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

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Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#821

Post by meowface »

freeflight wrote: post #802
meowface wrote: post #752

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the virus could be of natural origin but leaked from a lab, that scenario is still very much possible even in the context of the Lancet statement. That's absolutely true, but one of the main corollary claims is also that SARS-CoV-2 may have resulted in part from gain of function research. People making that claim have said that the virus seems to be particularly effective against humans despite no intermediate forms…

> People making that claim have said that the virus seems to be particularly effective against humans despite no intermediate forms discovered yet But such forms were already discovered back in 2015 as a result of the research that's now labeled as "GoF research", even tho it didn't actually fall under the GoF moratorium back then [0]. Imho the whole thing has a very "shooting the messenger" vibe to it; The evidence…

>But such forms were already discovered back in 2015 as a result of the research that's now labeled as "GoF research", even tho it didn't actually fall under the GoF moratorium back then [0].

I think I'm having difficulty understanding what you mean. Your link is referring to an engineered SARS hybrid virus. If SARS-CoV-2 is indeed also an engineered virus or a descendant of one, then this 2015 virus wouldn't be an intermediate form; just another example of the same sort of thing.

>Imho the whole thing has a very "shooting the messenger" vibe to it; The evidence we had for this being a very real possibility of happening is now turned into the alleged cause of it actually happening.

Do you mean "gain of function-like research is what warned us this could happen"? If so, if SARS-CoV-2 is a result of that sort of research, wouldn't gain of function research be both the messenger and the source, here?

Isn't that the whole crux of the debate and dilemma in the first place? That such research can help us discover, study, and mitigate risks, and can also potentially create new risks.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#822

Post by menomatter »

toshk wrote: post #608
bartart wrote: post #2

This is the most shocking article I have ever read in my life. I'd ask everyone to please read it because it is incredible. One thing I did not realize is that US researchers who conducted gain of function research tried to downplay and discredit the possibility of the virus originating from the wuhan lab. There was an anti-lab theory Lancet statement signed by scientists, and "Daszak had not only signed but organize…

The strong sentiment that it couldn't have come from the lab was suspicious from day one. It was not even allowed to be a consideration. Also, here on this forum, I was downvoted for saying it shouldn't be ruled out that the lab might be the source.

I think the article mentione one of the reasons:

" When Trump himself floated the lab-leak hypothesis last April, his divisiveness and lack of credibility made things more, not less, challenging for those seeking the truth."

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#823

Post by kelp »

snowwrestler wrote: post #760
chasd00 wrote: post #712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could you ever expect the CCP to be even remotely honest in any “share this with the world” R/D scenario?

At the height of the Cold War, when the U.S. and Soviet Union governments were sworn enemies and on the verge of shooting nuclear weapons at each other, U.S. and Soviet scientists collaborated openly and productively on a wide variety of subjects. Even with government funding. It’s not unusual to expect scientists to collaborate openly across national borders despite political winds, and in fact it is desirable.

Also funding the research is one way to ensure the results are shared.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#824

Post by Red_Leaves_Flyy »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #628
durovo wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"One obvious demand would have been access to the WIV’s database of some 22,000 virus samples and sequences, which had been taken offline. At an event convened by a London organization on March 10, Daszak was asked whether the group had made such a request. He said there was no need: Shi Zhengli had stated that the WIV took down the database due to hacking attempts during the pandemic. “Absolutely reasonable,” Daszak…

According to DRASTIC it's a 61.5 MB mysql database. Oddly, it went offline 12 September 2019 shortly _before_ the pandemic was announced in December 2019. Ref: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gilles-Demaneuf/publica... Not really clear why it hasn't been released, it would be technically trivial and save a lot of speculation. There is a bit of a pattern of DRASTIC researchers finding interesting tidbits in vario…

The lesson to take from this is to always dump the database and put it on scihub/torrent before going public.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#825

Post by 40four »

ddeck wrote: post #554
40four wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guys, a bit of a tangent if I may? This is not normally my lane, but I really wish we could get over this term ‘wet market’. From a western point of view if you really think about it, it’s derogatory, and likely based in racial paranoia. We’ve all heard this term time and time again in the media. But after looking into it more, it’s not really accurate. Just call it a market. Or a farmers market as we call them in Am…

You wouldn't call your local farmers market a 'wet' market because it isn't. Wet market is the standard English term for a market that sells live animals, typically seafood. They are full of tanks and water filled buckets and polystyrene boxes etc., thus the "wet" adjective. There are 2 less than a mile from my home and I've never heard anyone use a different name for them. You'll find this term used by the HK (i.e.…

Fair enough. I don't think I made my point exactly how I wanted on second though. Let me clarify.

The term in and of itself is not racist. But the way it was used in American media, and the negative connotations that were fed to us along with it, are very problematic.

The term 'wet market' has never really been used in the American lexicon. The first time the majority of Americans heard it was in regards to the pandemic. And it was instantly being using in a derogatory way. The media and day to day talk was filled with negative and inaccurate depictions of what these places really are.

They were said to be dirty, filthy places, where people are eating bats and all kinds of weird animals. And if only those Chinese people weren't being filthy and eating weird 'dirty' animals in their 'wet' markets, we wouldn't have this pandemic! I can't tell you how many times I heard this lane of thought early on last year.

And how many people still believe this to be the case? Probably a lot. Meanwhile, these places are just normal markets, where many people go to buy fresh meat, seafood & produce. And they spray water on the floors to wash them off (this by the way is my understanding of where the term 'wet' comes from, it doesn't have to be a seafood market).

This was what I was really trying to say, it's not the term 'wet' itself, but the way it was introduced to an audience who was not familiar with he term.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#826

Post by altcognito »

myfavoritedog wrote: post #732

I know that most people won't; but if this article is some kind of major a revelation to you, I hope that you take some time to re-evaluate your information sources. You really should think more carefully about how you detect bullshit. There were those who were sounding the alarm about this lab leak hypothesis well over a year ago. The overwhelming media narrative to look away from that hypothesis and smear those who…

Im still curious what you think this article really reveals. It makes a lot of unsupported claims. Fox News Is mainstream news. It literally is the most watched network, well beyond all those you listed as being “mainstream news”. Yet they serve the same biased, lack of balanced coverage as the sites you listed. In fact, the article even points out how White House advisors (on Fox, OAN) put out the WIV origin story over and over again using bad research and sources.

And again, I still don’t even know why this is more important than the task of dealing with the pandemic first. Pointing fingers directly led to a simpleton policy of blocking flights from China, which was the extent of public health measures for weeks. Cases were pouring in from italy without anyone doing quarantine follow up or contact tracing. It took months to get PPE and adequate testing in place.

Even today, as variants occur (hey, but nobody seems to care that those have origins too right?), there are literally Republicans fighting measures against public safety and calling into question the efficacy of vaccination.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#827

Post by [deleted] »

himinlomax wrote: post #792
op00to wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is a lab leak a likely scenario? You say that with no evidence to back up the claim. I say a lab leak is highly unlikely.

Consider the priors. There's one lab of that type doing that kind of work in China. What is the likelihood that an epidemic emerging in China next to that one lab while not being from the lab? Also lab leaks are a type of industrial accident. Industrial accidents happen even in the places with the most stringent security protocols. Were that lab's protocols the best in the world? Can't say. And those that are best in…

[deleted]

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#828

Post by lordloki »

raphlinus wrote: post #130

This is a good article. There's been so much junk over the past couple of weeks or so that it's been very frustrating. I've mostly been watching the debate unfold on Twitter, and it's confirmed for me that Twitter is a terrible place for real intellectually-curious discussion (probably social media in general). I've been wondering certain things, especially why Marc Lipsitch (one of the most consistently trustworthy…

The same media that was reporting on the lab leak being a conspiracy theory were the ones reporting that Trump and Trump supporters sided with the theory due to racism. There was no proof that racism was the reason, only that they referred to Covid19 as China Flu or Wuhan Flu. Both of which represent the origin and not a race.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#830

Post by Tarragon »

bartart wrote: post #2

This is the most shocking article I have ever read in my life. I'd ask everyone to please read it because it is incredible. One thing I did not realize is that US researchers who conducted gain of function research tried to downplay and discredit the possibility of the virus originating from the wuhan lab. There was an anti-lab theory Lancet statement signed by scientists, and "Daszak had not only signed but organize…

The state department memo disclosing the sick researchers story isn't anywhere near as strong as the article implies. It's not US original reporting and there is disagreement about how strong the unnamed sources really are.

I'm also going to attack the sources... This was strongly pushed by the Trump administration which was looking for this result. And originally reported by in the WSJ by Michael R. Gordon who is also one of the original reporters about the Iraq Aluminum tubes/centrifuge story that turned out to be wildly false.

It took about 15 years to trace the origins of SARS [1] to a specific bat cave. We cannot be this confident this early on SARS-CoV-2.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndr...

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