Earlier quoted context omitted.
I fear there isn't "one truth" out there, despite the content providers' and fact-checkers' attempts :( The idea is: "We are the decent, good, people who know the truth. Now we control the platforms, so it's only well and good we control the information, and we tell the deplorable others what they can and can't say." Almost everyone in the history books as a horrible oppressor has told themselves that narrative. Many…
How are police, judges, jurors, etc. exempt from this narrative? Or do you believe that the entire legal system simply should not exist at all, given that it clearly needs to determine the truth value of important statements?
YouTube bans coronavirus-related content that directly contradicts WHO advice
821–830 of 1001 posts
Re: YouTube bans coronavirus-related content that directly contradicts WHO advice
#822Earlier quoted context omitted.
>including claims that covid does not spread from human to human. That's how you interpret 'no clear evidence from preliminary investigations' is it? Why bother attempting to twist the WHO's words? What does it get you?
Yes, that's how I interpret 'no clear evidence from preliminary investigations'. The relevant timeline: Li Wenliang (a doctor in Wuhan) blew the whistle on Dec 30. 4 days later he was harassed by the Chinese police for "spreading rumors". On Jan 8 Li Wenliang was infected. On Jan 12 he was put in the ICU. On Jan 14 WHO denied human-to-human transmission. Li unfortunately passed away in early February. And by the way,…
December 25: Wuhan Municipal Health Committee posted on social media, “An Urgent Notice on the Treatment of Pneumonia of Unknown Cause.”
December 31: China contacts WHO and informs them of “cases of pneumonia of unknown etymology detected in Wuhan.”
January 1: Huanan Seafood Market is closed.
January 3: China informs US CDC and other countries
January 10: The gene sequencing data of COVID-19 is posted online and shared with other researchers.
January 23: China goes into lockdown.
Taiwan, themselves, had a press conference where they showed the email they sent the WHO and it did not say human-to-human transmission.
> As there were no confirmed cases in Taiwan at the time, the [Taiwan] CDC could not definitively state that there had been human-to-human transmission of the disease, he added.
> “We would really be giving a misleading message if we firmly stated that there was human-to-human transmission, so we clearly alerted the IHR about the information we received,” he said.
https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2020/04/12/2...
Re: YouTube bans coronavirus-related content that directly contradicts WHO advice
#823Earlier quoted context omitted.
>including claims that covid does not spread from human to human. That's how you interpret 'no clear evidence from preliminary investigations' is it? Why bother attempting to twist the WHO's words? What does it get you?
Yes, that's how I interpret 'no clear evidence from preliminary investigations'. The relevant timeline: Li Wenliang (a doctor in Wuhan) blew the whistle on Dec 30. 4 days later he was harassed by the Chinese police for "spreading rumors". On Jan 8 Li Wenliang was infected. On Jan 12 he was put in the ICU. On Jan 14 WHO denied human-to-human transmission. Li unfortunately passed away in early February. And by the way,…
This has been proven to not be true. They had no more information than anyone, and the WHO also did not exclude the possibility of H2H at any point.
Re: YouTube bans coronavirus-related content that directly contradicts WHO advice
#824Earlier quoted context omitted.
I saw that video and was shocked that a representative from WHO would behave that way, pretending not to hear the question and hanging up... utterly childish behaviour. I mean, how the hell am I supposed to take an organisation like that seriously?
Politics are a fact of international relations. It's childish to think an international organization that depends on its member countries for funding can just completely ignore that or blow it off, rather than eat shit occasionally in order to work around it. Sure, they can make a bold impassioned speech about how science is far beyond petty concerns like national sovereignty and so on, but this isn't a movie where a…
I didn't say organisations can or should ignore politics - of course, politics affect every organisation, especially those that work across borders.
My entire comment was about the childish behaviour of the WHO represenatative when asked about Taiwan[0] - he was literally one step away from putting his fingers in his ears and shouting "na na na na na!".
Re: YouTube bans coronavirus-related content that directly contradicts WHO advice
#825Earlier quoted context omitted.
You have not made a case for why you think that public health issues — such as Covid — should be a topic fully exempt from restriction by YouTube. You've made the case that freedom is good and that YouTube can take all sorts of steps, but you haven't explain at all what your position on this tradeoff is. As a country that restricts public behaviors when they conflict with public welfare, it is plausible to expect tha…
By the time the United States was founded, the idea of restricting speech that "conflict[s] with the public welfare" had become so frequently abused for self-serving censorship that a prohibition against the whole idea was written into the the highest laws of the country. The rationale for doing so applies today. A society can't figure out what is true if well-meaning people in power have the ability to censor anythi…
It is illegal to yell “fire” in a crowded theater and that is permitted under our country’s highest laws.
The case you’re making is that corporations, who do not have the power of military force over their citizens, should be held to the same standard of law as the governments that do.
As those governments legally have the right to prioritize the greater public gonod over individual rights, your logic implies that corporations, too, should be expected to prioritize the greater public good over individual rights.
This seems in direct contradiction to your point that speech should not be restricted, and so I cannot accept your reasoning as presented.
I think the root of my disagreement is with your phrase “self-serving speech”: the nation’s free speech restrictions must serve the nation’s citizens as a whole, in order to be legal. They must prioritize the welfare of most over the welfare of few, and do so only in circumstances where the harm is great if left unrestricted. The nation did not put into place such protections at the corporate level, resulting in YouTube, a platform with a population greater than that of our nation, having no legal requirement to prioritize the welfare of most over the welfare of few.
If your position is that YouTube should be bound to the same onus of responsibility as our nation, then YouTube should be taking much more aggressive action to censor content than it has done to date. It should be restricting individual speech where the welfare of the world’s citizens is at risk of significant harm, exactly as our nation’s laws are.
It seems like your true argument is not with YouTube, but is in fact with the theory that the welfare of the entire population is sufficient cause to restrict individual freedoms; and that this view applies both to YouTube’s policies, and to United States constitutional law. It’s your right to hold that view and express it in general, but I cannot agree, as I consider its outcomes both unjust to the greater good and unsupported by law.
Re: YouTube bans coronavirus-related content that directly contradicts WHO advice
#826Earlier quoted context omitted.
There isn’t “qualified” and “unqualified”. It’s not that black-and-white, and I wish people would accept that more. Basically what we should be asking ourselves is “What’s the likelihood that what this person is telling me is correct?” which is much more useful, because it immediately puts the focus on what factors contribute to that. We aren’t going to conclude anything useful until we can agree that there are good…
Makes total sense. The black and white thing always seemed so weird. It's a false dichotomy. Even if censorship is good in the particular context (which seems to be the case here), but bad in general and bad in principle, it seems that the real issue is that there should be one unaccountable entity who gets to make that decision. Why is Youtube big enough to have such an impact without being accountable in any way to…
I think censorship can be dangerous in this context so I'm working on a decentralised fact-checker. I think it could be a more constructive solution to fake news that isn't subject to these problems: https://blog.verifact.io/2020/04/20/A-decentralised-fact-che...
[1] https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/topics/company/2020/covid-19....
[2] https://nypost.com/2020/04/17/facebook-fact-checkers-foul-ag...
Re: YouTube bans coronavirus-related content that directly contradicts WHO advice
#827Current WHO advice: "If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with COVID-19." [0] Where we live, due to local laws , we are now obliged to wear a mask to go shopping. Can one discuss that on YouTube, or would one be contradicting the WHO? I fear there isn't "one truth" out there, despite the content providers' and fact-checkers' attempts :( We keep trying to encourage our ki…
"Are you surprised to hear WHO saying that healthy skydivers don't need to and shouldn't use parachutes? This is backed up by a systematic review of randomized controlled trials, published in the British Medical Journal, cited more than 1000 times: https://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459"
From https://twitter.com/hashbreaker/status/1245493436939042816
Re: YouTube bans coronavirus-related content that directly contradicts WHO advice
#828Earlier quoted context omitted.
They'll probably cull everything that doesn't earn them ad revenue, to minimize the fallout. The content will trend toward sanitized garbage and the viewers will start leaking to somewhere else.
Yep, kill any content an ML model has predicted of high risk or unprofitable. Classic example of a regulation second order effects resulting in the opposite outcome of what was intended.
Re: YouTube bans coronavirus-related content that directly contradicts WHO advice
#829Earlier quoted context omitted.
> As I read [0] it is not, in fact, a blanket declaration about transmissibility. It's still misinformation, and it's specifically misinformation that makes the WHO complicit in 187,420 deaths and counting. There had been plenty of indications by that point that - even if human-to-human transmission had not yet been confirmed - it was still evidently spreading beyond people at ground zero. That is, I ain't sure how y…
>this is an outright lie, given that the sheer number of people by that point who were hospitalized with the virus without ever having visited the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market would be, I would argue, evidence. Oh yes, the random programmer who know public health better than actual public health experts. You have not done the research, you were not there. You can argue it's evidence, but arguing something is, is n…
Apparently yes, given that it's a bit of a smoking gun. Namely because:
> the Huanan Seafood Market was suspected as a source of the virus but it could have come from somewhere else too.
It was (to my knowledge) the only suspected source for quite a while (up until the later discovery that the currently-known "patient zero" had no connection to it, and even then it's still considered ground zero for the outbreak). If there was any indication that "it could have come from somewhere else", and that "somewhere else" is evidently a place where even fewer patients in common visited ("evidently" because if it was a common factor it would've been mentioned instead of or alongside the seafood market, and yet... no such location was mentioned), then that serves as even stronger evidence that it's somehow spreading between humans, even if the mechanism is unknown.
If even a "random programmer" on Hacker News can point this out, then I strongly suspect there were a number of doctors and nurses and other personnel on the front lines who could have and did point this out, too.
Plus, China knew as early as 31 December that the "novel coronavirus" was related to SARS (leaking that info is what got Dr. Li Wenliang in trouble), which was already known to spread human-to-human. Seems like "it looks like SARS and probably has similar spreading mechanisms" would be a reasonable assumption when information is limited: better safe than sorry (and in this case, 180,000+ deaths later, "sorry" indeed). I obviously don't blame the WHO for the entirety of that (or even necessarily China; my government dragged its feet, too, like most governments), but the WHO is certainly not blameless, either, and that it continues to spread misinformation like how not everyone should be wearing masks doesn't leave a whole lot of room for me to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Re: YouTube bans coronavirus-related content that directly contradicts WHO advice
#830Earlier quoted context omitted.
What exactly qualifies someone to be a "professional" who is allowed to speak? The vast majority of content I watch on Youtube is produced by independent creators covering a variety of topics with much more detail, expertise, and truth than any mainstream program.
There isn’t “qualified” and “unqualified”. It’s not that black-and-white, and I wish people would accept that more. Basically what we should be asking ourselves is “What’s the likelihood that what this person is telling me is correct?” which is much more useful, because it immediately puts the focus on what factors contribute to that. We aren’t going to conclude anything useful until we can agree that there are good…
If I had the skills I would build a strategy game that deals with the new reality - that tribes are nonlocal but often ideologically quite cohesive. Exploring the idea that one's ideological affiliations, rather than one's government or search engine, controls one's thought seems like it would lend itself to the medium rather well.