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Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

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Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#821

Well I don’t agree with unions politically, the threat of unionization does have a positive effect at times ...

You're against employees of a company banding together under the right of free speech and negotiating with a company as a group?

Woah check out that straw man argument! I think what OP was saying, which you may have missed, is that politically they don’t agree with unions. Neither do I. Unions appear to suppress wages, block people from jobs who are not members of the union, and engage in bullying tactics against those who don’t want to join. On top of the fact they take that money (util recently, forceably) taken from employees and used for political means which go beyond the purpose of the union! A lot of Amazon workers were threatening to unionize, so when I think the original post was saying is that the threat may have worked.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#822

There's been similar moves in the past. Most famous of which is Ford's $5 / day. http://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2014/01/03/blogs/post-per... Ford's quote from the time is relevant today: “The owner, the employees, and the buying public are all one and the same, and unless an industry can so manage itself as to keep wages high and prices low it destroys itself, for otherwise it limits the number of its customers.…

I suspect other companies will have to match Amazon's wages. Walmart's employees are looking at Amazon and wondering why they don't get the same wages. This will become the de facto minimum wage at least in retail. This is good news overall.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#823
post #620

Jeff Bezos in the announcement. “We’re excited about this change and encourage our competitors and other large employers to join us" Is this an attempt to pressure its competition with less money in the bank to do the same, loby for a higher minimum wage and drive them out of business? Maybe it's a reaction to the union organizing taking place a whole foods and they think this will be cheaper in the long run. I don't…

Even if it is motivated by an attempt to gain competitive advantage, it's still a good thing. If the competition can't find labor at less than $15 an hour, then they'll either go out of business or start offering competitive pay. It's an example of capitalism working both for business and employees.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#824

People often complain about power concentrating in a few companies, but an interesting side effect of that is that it should, in theory, increase the bargaining power of labor. It's a lot easier to unionize a handful of huge companies than it is to unionize a whole bunch of smaller companies. This move by Amazon is probably a reflection of that.

Matt Bruenig draws the same conclusion here. https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2018/01/16/small-busine...

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#825

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ford's $5/day wage doesn't happen in a vacuum. The showmanship and publicity causes pressure on other manufacturers to pay that much. Otherwise, anybody working at a competitor will just be thinking to themselves "I'm just working here to get experience so I can have an edge on other applicants at Ford." Competitors that pay less will be dealing with high turnover unless they match Ford's wages. And it's not just car…

Okay, but I doubt this had much effect outside Detroit. Anyone know the history? This would be like claiming that high salaries in Silicon Valley are somehow going to fix inequality nationwide. There is some spillover but it only goes so far.

There's a large amount of people in other cities willing to move to San Francisco if the wage is higher than their current wage + moving and cost of living differences. That drives wages up in those cities by either paying more to keep employees or now needing to compete for a smaller pool of employees. The same pull on employees pulls people out of other industries into tech as well which should drive up wages.

The wages elsewhere aren't going to go up as high but it should have some upward drag

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#826

There's been similar moves in the past. Most famous of which is Ford's $5 / day. http://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2014/01/03/blogs/post-per... Ford's quote from the time is relevant today: “The owner, the employees, and the buying public are all one and the same, and unless an industry can so manage itself as to keep wages high and prices low it destroys itself, for otherwise it limits the number of its customers.…

Yeah, I don't take that explanation at face value because it's describing a perpetual motion machine. Sales to your own employees are only going to be a trivial amount of revenue for any reasonable business. And I'm sure he knew that. But interpreted charitably, it's showmanship. This is a way to show leadership, get a lot of publicity, and hire better workers, so what's not to like?

No, yours is the uncharitable explanation.

In reality it shows that Ford understood that all of us are in this together (“The owner, the employees, and the buying public are all one and the same”) – and we take it that Ford was not only referring to his own employees but to all employees. So if you want the public to be able to by your goods then we ought to recognise that the public must be able to afford those goods. By extension, even though a capitalist might want to increase profits by keeping wages low he must realise that he decreases the market for his own goods – if enough owners think this way – (“and unless an industry can so manage itself as to keep wages high and prices low it destroys itself, for otherwise it limits the number of its customers”). To sum it up, (“One’s own employees ought to be one’s own best customers.”) doesn't mean that every single one of your employees will buy your product – rather it's an aspirational statement encouraging all owners to pay their employees a living wage and not to myopically fixate on margins and the bottom line.

It would be showmanship if Ford said this and then turned around and paid his employees crap and worked them to the bone, but

“In 1914, Henry Ford made a big announcement that shocked the country. It caused the financial editor at The New York Times to stagger into the newsroom and ask his staff in a stunned whisper, “He’s crazy, isn’t he? Don’t you think he’s crazy?”

That morning, Ford would begin paying his employees $5.00 a day, over twice the average wage for automakers in 1914.

In addition, he was reducing the work day from 9 hours to 8 hours, a significant drop from the 60-hour work week that was the standard in American manufacturing.”

http://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2014/01/03/blogs/post-per...

You're the uncharitable one. You're either a sink-or-swim type or dead cynical because I can't believe you're not intelligent enough to be able to take what Ford said at face value.

I watched a video today about a young American describing his visit (for a sprained foot) to a clinic in the Netherlands and an emergency room in Germany. He recounted his visits because he was so shocked that at how little he had to pay for an X-ray and meds and how little time he waited to get a referral and how little time he spent in the hospital. I honestly think that there's something deeply damaged at the heart of the American psyche. You've no sense that you are “are all one and the same” to use Ford's words. You can't see why collectively paying taxes for healthcare (everyone's family has an illness at some point in time) and collectively bargaining for cheaper medicines from manufacturers might be overall a good thing. You can't see why paying regular folks a living wage benefits all of society, even those who have to do the paying. No man is an island, we're all in the same boat. But hey, I'm all right Jack, I've got mine huh? There's only so much inequity and hardship people will take before something breaks – history shows us this time and time again.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#827
post #620

Jeff Bezos in the announcement. “We’re excited about this change and encourage our competitors and other large employers to join us" Is this an attempt to pressure its competition with less money in the bank to do the same, loby for a higher minimum wage and drive them out of business? Maybe it's a reaction to the union organizing taking place a whole foods and they think this will be cheaper in the long run. I don't…

"Bezos wouldn't do this unless he saw a benefit for the business or his hand was being forced somehow."

I don't like this type of knee-jerk suspicion towards people running corporations. Don't forget that they have conscience too, and can make decisions for the better or for the worse. In fact, by not giving credit where credit is due, you disincentivize them from trying to do good things.

Yes, business people need to make hard decisions to stay competitive, and yes, they have an obligation to their investors to make a profit. But these investors are people as well and might be proud of owning the stock if the company makes positive decisions. Further, if there's a certain amount of leeway that is afforded a very successful company to do something like this, but still stay competitive, then capitalism doesn't force that person's hand.

I'm sure the full fallout of such a policy has been considered and it wasn't made impulsively. But immediately dismissing altruism as a partial motive is unfair and sets a bad precedent.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#828

There's been similar moves in the past. Most famous of which is Ford's $5 / day. http://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2014/01/03/blogs/post-per... Ford's quote from the time is relevant today: “The owner, the employees, and the buying public are all one and the same, and unless an industry can so manage itself as to keep wages high and prices low it destroys itself, for otherwise it limits the number of its customers.…

Yeah, I don't take that explanation at face value because it's describing a perpetual motion machine. Sales to your own employees are only going to be a trivial amount of revenue for any reasonable business. And I'm sure he knew that. But interpreted charitably, it's showmanship. This is a way to show leadership, get a lot of publicity, and hire better workers, so what's not to like?

Its only a perpetual motion machine if you believe that economic growth is zero sum.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#829

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yeah, absolutely. I consider myself the quintessential middle class. My point was that kidsnow said $200-500k is middle class, but it really depends on location. It often feels that the majority of people on Hacker News are living in a Silicon Valley bubble. They talk as if $1,000,000 for a 1500 sq ft house is normal, as if $150k is decent entry-level wage, and...you get the idea. $200-500k is middle class for Sil…

the SEC uses income thresholds of 200k for an individual and 300k for joint (two years in a row). Should people in the middle class be able to invest? https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp=&SID=8edfd12967...

Income is not wealth

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#830
post #792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Midterms will be here in a month. "Bernicrats" (Left progressive Democrats) have been doing extremely well in recent elections and polling. If you're not afraid as a Republican or a corporation, you haven't been paying attention. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-18/internal-... (Internal RNC Poll: Complacent Trump Voters May Cost GOP Control of Congress) http://time.com/5411948/national-voter-registrat…

You're not wrong, but you do realize that the outcome of a midterm election won't affect the president's authority to sign or veto bills?

If you allow a populist sentiment freight train to build against you, you have already lost.
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