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European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

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Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#821

Post by candiodari »

lagadu wrote: post #743
beerlord wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android already has a problem with fragmentation, which becomes a problem for customers when their phone becomes vulnerable due to a lack of security patches. There are lots of cheap Chinese Android phones simply filled with malware from the factory. If Google allowed phone makers to ship Android forks, this whole problem would become a lot worse. I think this Google policy is actually pro-consumer, and the EU is wro…

Are you actually arguing that giving less freedom to the consumer is for their own good? Am I just missing the sarcasm maybe?

Lots of Apple users feel like the app store gives them a pretty strong case this is mostly true.

I kind of agree with them, actually.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#822

Post by joshuamorton »

jhasse wrote: post #816
joshuamorton wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that an important part of the Microsoft argument was that you couldn't uninstall ie and it was used by certain system functions even if you set a different default. That's an important distinction. (Im a Googler, but that's not particularly relevant to this comment)

I can't uninstall Chrome on my LG Android phone either.

No, but you can fully disable it (and that's equivalent to uninstalling, and wasn't possible on windows).

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#823

Post by bitmapbrother »

sah2ed wrote: post #712
DannyBee wrote: post #694

The net outcome of this decision will be that nobody will create significant open platforms of this type anymore, because once you are successful you will no longer be able to have any control over the experience. Someone will always be able to find a market that you are hurting. If you actually read the decision that's essentially their underlying complaint. They dress it up in terms about search market blah blah bl…

> Android being open at all was already a fight inside Google, this decision will essentially make it impossible for anybody win that fight in the future. I can't see why anyone would risk making an open platform again. It was a calculated risk that had a handsome payoff, if it worked, which is why it had to be open source, anything short of open source and Android would never have taken off like it did with several…

>It was a calculated risk that had a handsome payoff,

Yes, it payed off in marketshare, but severely limited the profitability of Android and being another major revenue stream for Google. I hope this decision makes them think twice about their strategy for Fuchsia because they seem to be using the Android model all over again. Google really needs to start operating like Apple for better or worse.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#824

Post by utopcell »

blub wrote: post #788
DannyBee wrote: post #694

The net outcome of this decision will be that nobody will create significant open platforms of this type anymore, because once you are successful you will no longer be able to have any control over the experience. Someone will always be able to find a market that you are hurting. If you actually read the decision that's essentially their underlying complaint. They dress it up in terms about search market blah blah bl…

Having worked for so many years at Google, you should be aware that your employer is forbidding Android manufacturers to also produce any non-certified Android-based devices. No Android logo, no app store, no GApps, still forbidden if that company happens to sell an unrelated Android device. So in fact it is not about "whether Google is allowed to control the experience of Android phones that want to use the Google a…

This argument doesn't make any sense.

Android was developed via billions of dollars of investment by Google. Google has no obligation to provide a free OSS variant, other than for the parts that are GPL'ed.

If all Google is offering is the complete Android experience (including the App store and all the Google apps,) and not any OSS variant, how are manufacturers limited exactly ? They can either use Android, that is being offered to them for free, or roll their own OS.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#825

Post by AnthonyMouse »

reitanqild wrote: post #668
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Massive fines discourage monopolistic behavior, if nothing else. The problem is businesses may take it as a signal that the EU is against foreign businesses rather than against monopolistic practices, in which case the thing being deterred is doing business in the EU rather than monopolistic practices. To show otherwise they would have to levy equally large fines against local businesses engaged in the same sort of…

You do understand that nobody, including politicians and FF users want to remove Chrome, Edge or Safari? You do understand that doing that would probably cost those companies (and everyone else) a lot more? We only want a level playing field. Giving companies a real fine is just a way to make sure the board and the shareholders actually gets the message ;-)

> You do understand that nobody, including politicians and FF users want to remove Chrome, Edge or Safari?

It's punishment. If somebody wants it then somebody has a perverse incentive.

> You do understand that doing that would probably cost those companies (and everyone else) a lot more?

Exactly. You actually punish them, in the way directly contrary the the goal they were trying to achieve with their bad behavior, without suspiciously enriching yourselves in a way that calls your true motives into question.

> We only want a level playing field. Giving companies a real fine is just a way to make sure the board and the shareholders actually gets the message ;-)

But what message are they getting?

It's not as if there is a clear roadmap for how to avoid this sort of thing. Antitrust laws are super vague and prohibit a wide variety of common business practices, to make it effective to use them against powerful nefarious entities with many lawyers. The theory is that the government will only use them against bad actors. But if the government considers you a bad actor just because you're a foreign company, what are you supposed to do then?

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#826

Post by datalist »

Brakenshire wrote: post #818
kajecounterhack wrote: post #813

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Android has something like 85-90% marketshare http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-stat... I was surprised by this figure, but it doesn't look true based on cursory google search?

That’s for the US. Change the filter to Europe and you get 74% Android, which will go up towards 90% in some national markets.

No need to change to Europe.

Worldwide is at 77% http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide/#...

Poland (#6 in the EU by population) is at 97% http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/poland/#mon...

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#827

Post by cornholio »

beerlord wrote: post #685
cornholio wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The margins of the Play Store are huge and it's quite easy to disrupt with a copy cat - the developers will flock to an alternative store with similar functionality and 2% fees. And of course customers . The Play store is the crown jewel and protecting that massive revenue stream is paramount, it could well become the most important software market in the world.

So a copycat needs: -Developers -Customers -To be able to survive on fees less than it costs for a credit card transaction -To be installed on something better than Android And you call all this easy? ;-)

The only thing a copycat needs is that manufacturers be allowed to install it as the default app store, without ruining their relation with Google.

Once that happens, copy cats will pay manufacturers to preinstall, leading to customers, leading to developers who want to tap that still uncrowded market. And once multiple app stores bootstrap, a price war is inevitable - margins of 30% would be undefendable since they would be passed on to the consumer who would switch to a cheaper app store.

It's very clear why Google would want to prevent such a race.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#828

Post by iowahansen »

My company ran into this time and again, trying to get our browser pre-installed by the manufacturer only to loose the deal last minute as Google would threaten to withhold device certification if there is a different browser pre-installed (beside Google Chrome).

Google is a big bully and if you try to compete with them in an area they care about, they will use their market dominance to keep your product out. They have been deserving that fine for a long time.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#829

Post by datalist »

cageface wrote: post #802
kerng wrote: post #799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about Google just allows OEM to license without preventing them to customize as they see fit best for their customers? Or allow them to build other solutions, not forcing them to do it the Google way? Its the exact same evil business practicr Microsoft did in the 90s, surprising Google got away with it that long. But also Microsoft wasn't fined until something like 10 years later...

The key difference at that time was that Microsoft had zero real competition and was stifling innovation in the OS and web space. Instead today Android is the only alternative to the most proprietary and richest company in the history of computing, which needs no legal remedies or special favors.

Zero competition?

OS/2, Linux, Apple, BeOS, etc.

Stifling innovation? How? The "web space" didnt even really exist.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#830

Post by datalist »

cageface wrote: post #811
kerng wrote: post #808

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android has something like 85-90% marketshare - not different then Windows back in the day. Google bundling their Search with it is just pushing their own agenda.

Yet still most people develop for iOS first and then later port to Android, if at all. It's really not a comparable situation at all.

That was true about seven to ten years ago.
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