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The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

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Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#821
post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

I used to work as a chef, and the problems really aren't that different. People describe their experience on a resume but knowing whether the guy will be able to do their prep efficiently etc is just impossible without seeing them work.

The solution? Sure, come in, do a shift. See how you like the kitchen and the environment. We'll just give you some cash for your time.

Interestingly this goes away at a certain level of seniority, but I always liked it as a simple way to get a feel for a potential hire.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#822

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realize that you’re doing the best that you know how given the time pressures you have as an interviewer. There is no perfect answer to this problem. Here’s the thing though, you are “leaving money on the table” when your interview process deselects great programmers because of a mistaken belief that Test A is a good proxy for developer talent. When HN developers are telling that Test A is a bad proxy for developer…

A lot of that's true or might be true, but how do we improve things? > you are “leaving money on the table” when your interview process deselects great programmers because of a mistaken belief that Test A is a good proxy for developer talent. That's true for any non-perfect interview process at any job. The problem isn't that people don't know this, it's that it's hard to accurately measure who's good. > you might co…

I wasn’t referring to the in-office vs. take-home aspect, just the “stress test” nature of the white boarding test. (And I was admittedly unclear about that in my post and I’m sorry.)

Think of ways you can de-stress the candidate while extracting useful information. Ideas:

1. Have them bring something they wrote with them and describe it in the interview. A lot of developers will “come out of their shell” when they start explaining something that they worked on.

2. Show them some code and have them explain it to you. I had a manager open a C book once and had me explain some code.

3. Pair program on a problem that the interviewer doesn’t know the answer to. This situation is a lot more like a true work situation.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've resolved not to take any more live coding interviews, on the grounds it is uninformative, degrading hazing. Depends on the job. I'm currently hiring and the live coding exercise is a must for the position because I want to see how the person problem solves while under stress. Because stuff happens. My team works on mission critical systems that can have issues that we sometimes must resolve quickly which is ve…

Would you be OK with interviewees giving the interviewers a quick coding test? You know, to make sure they won’t be working with people who can’t carry their weight? Remember, interviews go both ways.

Right? I wouldn't feel comfortable working with colleagues who couldn't instantly come up with a novel sorting algorithm to some bizarre scenario I thought of to stump people. So maybe I should "counter" each coding question with my own. It'd be like a shootout. This isn't a dysfunctional culture, right?

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#824

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. Working for nothing __is__ obnoxious. Not to belittle anyone but...a plumber is licensed. An electrician is licensed. Even a hair stylist is licensed. Perhaps licensing a programmer / developer / engineer would be over doing it. (Read: Yes, it would be. But the examples do help.) That said, can't there be…

> Not to belittle anyone but...a plumber is licensed. An electrician is licensed. Even a hair stylist is licensed. Shitty plumbers are licensed. Shitty electricians are licensed. Shitty hair stylists are licensed. A license says nothing about current competence. It says the person demonstrated some minimal level of competence at one point, fills out their paperwork every year, and hasn't fucked up royally enough yet…

Yes. The point was other professions have a "process", and many of them have real (publuc) health related impact.

It's also why I pivoted to certification.

There is no panacea, nor is the status quo sustainable. So where's the disruption? Where's the innovation?

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#825

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. Working for nothing __is__ obnoxious. Not to belittle anyone but...a plumber is licensed. An electrician is licensed. Even a hair stylist is licensed. Perhaps licensing a programmer / developer / engineer would be over doing it. (Read: Yes, it would be. But the examples do help.) That said, can't there be…

> Not to belittle anyone but...a plumber is licensed. An electrician is licensed. Even a hair stylist is licensed. How often do you hire some one based on certificates?

Um. Does today matter? This is simply an idea for going forward. Doing nothing is not an option. Is it?

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#826
post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only way to code under pressure like that is with practice. I turn into an idiot non-coder in these situations, but I've gotten much better over time, to where I always pass a live coding session. In the real world, I spend a fair amount of time thinking and teasing a problem apart before I actually start coding. This is hard to do in an interview - even if the interviewer says "think about it for a few minutes", the…

This. I noticed that I have gone for over fifteen years through some pretty tough jobs, but never needed to write any Leetcode binary tree problem from scratch in thirty minutes in my work while being questioned. I normally freeze up because I worry about current best practices every step of the way. In the end, I scored a job with a FAANG company literally because I didn't want to work there. A friend warned me away…

>What bothers me is: you're basically the same coder both before and after competitive coding practice. You're only more marketable with the same skills.

Yup. You keep keep measuring that thing..I don't think you're measuring what you think you're measuring.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#827

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Todd, is that you? Sounds a lot like the process used by someone I worked with years ago. It sounds to me like you’ve done some careful thinking about this, and it doesn’t sound unreasonable. One of my beefs really gets down to the interview process turning into a one-way grilling, dehumanizing the candidate into a “code monkey.” It sounds to me like you are trying really hard to evaluate their technical skills, but…

Haha, nope, not Todd.

Nice try, Todd ;)

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#828

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every accountant attending an interview can produce a certificate from an accredited national group saying that they have taken an in-person, proctored exam on double-entry accounting, which is the 'credentials check' you refer to. There's nothing like it for programmers.

There are plenty of options. Programmers only just have to pick one, or create a new one for all that it matters. For instance, NCEES that runs the Professional Engineering accreditation that every other Engineering discipline utilizes, has a Software Engineering PE. Tomorrow we could grandfather in every Senior Dev with 5+ years experience as a PE and then start requiring it, and encouraging kids to train for it and…

Have you seen the Software PE? In contrast to the other PE exams, it manages to cover everything except actual programming.

https://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/ncees_PESoftware_2013....

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#829
post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You removed the word "related" in this reply. I think our contention centers mainly around this word. When I see the word related I envision most standard job offers that have a laundry list of 10+ technologies, not all of them particularly related. Software engineering is such a wide field with such a huge array of available technology options that if you're limiting to 5+ years in a specific stack you're already ma…

To clear this up: If I ask for five years of related experience, I mean that if my list includes an object-oriented language with a well-known framework, I expect to see someone who has worked with an object-oriented language with a well-known framework and has perhaps dabbled in the particular one I mentioned. Instead I get many resumes from people who have never used an object-oriented language to contribute to any…

When I was fresh out of University I had to send at least 2 resumes per week to get my unemployment money. Sometimes there were no positions open that matches my criteria, so I just send it to what I could find.

The worst I could get was a no :)

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#830
post #442
post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other option is to check references, do credential checks, and simple bullshit screens during interviews, like every other professional interview. Literally every other profession has this challenge! Programmers are unique only in their seeming inability to realize that they are not unique. Accountants are not asked to solve double-entry accounting whiteboard problems. Finance professionals are not given take-hom…

Yes. I told the interviewer he could call any of my past managers, knowing they would take the call, and knowing they’d give a glowing report. He laughed!

Well...fuck that guy. There is really no better measure, assuming you have the basic social skills to see through a con job/scam. I mean yah, you could always be tricked into calling someone's buddy or something, but with any depth or tactful questions that is rarely going to fool anyone.
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