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Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

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Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#821

Post by StargazyPi »

LouisSayers wrote: post #226

Where is Google's rebuttal of this memo? All anyone is saying is "it's wrong" etc, but where is an ACTUAL breakdown of what was incorrect about what he wrote? I feel like most "rebuttal's" are like listening to Donald Trump. "He's wrong and we're right. We're definitely right.". If you do have a link, please share!

This is a really good one, in my view: https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man....

I agree - the discussion around this topic is very frustrating (more frustrating to me than the actual content of the manifesto by far), and everyone's trying to make it so black and white.

I think the current top comment has it right; it makes good points (there are statistical differences in traits across genders), it makes bad points (the wage gap...just doesn't work like that), and it contains some really bad non-sequitur conclusions (measure how a person leads on the outputs of their team, not how "assertive" or "technical" they are).

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#822

Post by raverbashing »

slackingoff2017 wrote: post #714
tunesmith wrote: post #123

People can't seem to summarize his argument without getting much of it grossly wrong, because his manifesto was a haphazard collection of good points, bad points, good arguments, lousy arguments, misrepresentations of others' views, and unstated implications. A perfect recipe for people to argue past each other about it. It's worth remembering that one of his conclusions was to end or replace gender-based diversity p…

You imply bias in the the hiring process is what is causing the gender imbalance in tech. Indicators such university enrollment in CS programs show that this is unlikely to be the case. If the author is wrong, that there definitely isn't some inherit genetic behavioral bias influencing job choice, than the bias is happening before students finish highschool. I'm a proponent for an "early bias" theory because of far l…

> You imply bias in the the hiring process is what is causing the gender imbalance in tech. Indicators such university enrollment in CS programs show that this is unlikely to be the case.

Or it implies that the bias has a more profound origin than simply hiring practices

(the funnel tapers earlier in the process)

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#823

Post by moduspol »

drawkbox wrote: post #248

It was a bit of a Jerry Maguire moment even if you agree with some of it. At work you should be professional and not only work to make yourself and the company/product better, but the people around you better. It is mostly not healthy to get political or ideological at work unless you want to divide people. A company and employees really shouldn't get political if at all possible, to prevent a divided customer base.…

I guess the opposing argument would be that the existing policy got there politically, and the only way to oppose it (even with data and sources) will make people uncomfortable. Writing the same manifesto in support of the existing policy would not have rocked the boat.

I agree a manifesto likely isn't the best idea, but you also can't just say informally, "maybe there are biological differences that affect representation at a high level." When you just say that, people assume it's a dog whistle. You have to support it, and you have to make a case for what you're proposing. You also have to state in black and white that sexism still exists, and that you're suggesting there could be other causes, too. By that point, it becomes a manifesto.

To me it ultimately comes down to the context of where it was shared internally and how, but it's tough to find details there.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#824

Post by GrantSolar »

nikolay wrote: post #815

A company that claims to embrace diversity does not tolerate a diverse opinion - right or wrong. I can understand why San Fran is so anti-conservative, but I cannot accept this blatant hypocrisy of being so intolerant and even aggressive towards those who dare to divert! Companies like Google do something worse than censorship - they induce self-censorship, which is something that even the Commies failed to accomplis…

>I cannot accept this blatant hypocrisy of being so intolerant and even aggressive towards those who dare to divert!

This is not about purging the company of people with different ideologies. This is about a person who thought it was appropriate to publicly question not just the ability of their co-workers, but whether they are fundamentally capable of performing.

Regardless of the accuracy of his statements, this was not the way to push for any change he might have been hoping to achieve

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#825

Post by hyperdunc »

eagsalazar2 wrote: post #570
eagsalazar2 wrote: post #555

Google really blew it. Just look at this conversation, normally happy and polite HN is barely restraining itself only because of fear of being hell banned and this is a tiny watered down version of the outrage they have unleashed nation wide. Had they just (as they should ethically have done) privately let the guy know "hey uh, independent of whether we agree with you, can you please cool it because this is USA, Bay…

I can't imagine the rage this has unleashed within google. Google will be fundamentally fractured internally because of this one decision.

The entire Western world is fractured. Opposing narratives spurred by different values are evolving.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#826

Post by Waterluvian »

onion2k wrote: post #810
Waterluvian wrote: post #101

I believe that equal opportunity among all persons is manifest. But I think the manner in which we encourage/enforce/promote it, especially in the workplace, demands debate. We must be able to disagree with the methods without any question of our belief of its purpose. The most disgusted I've ever felt at a workplace was when my boss, prior to me interviewing someone, said, "and she gets an extra point because she's…

My job is not to balance an arbitrary math equation that x% of engineers are supposed to be women. It's also true that your job is not to balance an arbitrary math equation that x% of engineers are supposed to be men either. Consequently, unless you can demonstrate that you're unbiased with regard to gender, it's entirely reasonable to introduce an external pressure to make sure any bias (conscious or otherwise) is m…

You make a good point that I've fought with for a while too. My thinking on this is that unless I can be shown the work for what that % is supposed to be, we're just being wrong by policy, rather than wrong by systemic cultural biases.

I don't believe that a perfect world has every job populated by a even number of persons of all genders. To me, that would suggest that we believe all genders to be the same.

For example, Almost 100% of midwives in Ontario are female. Is this fundamentally wrong and needs to be addressed? What is the correct percentage of male, female, and other midwives? What is the measure of our policy's effectiveness?

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#827

Post by gizmo »

wyclif wrote: post #31

Fun fact: the author of the memo earned a PhD in Biology from Harvard. Google can fire him and get away with it, but it's going to be tough, very tough, for him to be falsely characterized as someone who is misinformed or unscientific. And the court of public opinion may well be more important in this controversy than any court of law.

Factual fact: The dude doesn't have a PhD. He suggested he had one, but he never completed his PhD program nor did he publish any papers.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#828

Post by rayiner »

zero_shift wrote: post #807
slackingoff2017 wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You imply bias in the the hiring process is what is causing the gender imbalance in tech. Indicators such university enrollment in CS programs show that this is unlikely to be the case. If the author is wrong, that there definitely isn't some inherit genetic behavioral bias influencing job choice, than the bias is happening before students finish highschool. I'm a proponent for an "early bias" theory because of far l…

> You imply bias in the the hiring process is what is causing the gender imbalance in tech. Indicators such university enrollment in CS programs show that this is unlikely to be the case. You are assuming that women are choosing their college degrees in a vacuum. They don't. They ask: can I see myself doing this job? Is this a worthwhile investment? And when they cannot see themselves working in tech, because they se…

Absolutely right on this first point. I've always suspected my wife would have been a good programmer (she destroyed me on the logic games section of the LSAT, which imo correlates with engineering reasoning ability: http://www.volokh.com/posts/1198455392.shtml). But she never even considered it, partly because she didn't want to choose a field in which she'd be facing all the hurdles of being a minority.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#829

Post by StargazyPi »

jorgemf wrote: post #235
tunesmith wrote: post #123

People can't seem to summarize his argument without getting much of it grossly wrong, because his manifesto was a haphazard collection of good points, bad points, good arguments, lousy arguments, misrepresentations of others' views, and unstated implications. A perfect recipe for people to argue past each other about it. It's worth remembering that one of his conclusions was to end or replace gender-based diversity p…

> If gender-based diversity programs are responsible for qualified women getting jobs that they otherwise wouldn't have gotten due to bias, then the lack of that program means those women wouldn't have gotten those jobs. This is a double sword thing. With the program you might hire more qualified women, but also more less qualified women and you might prevent of hiring more qualified men. Because you have to hire wom…

I think there are a lot of misconceptions about diversity programs, and their purpose. Let's use tech leadership as an example:

The problem they're solving shouldn't be "we need more women in tech, so let's lower the bar for them". The problem they should be solving is "There are two candidates for this leadership position. One tends to use assertiveness and authority to get the job done. The other uses encouragement and persuasion. Who do you hire?". The default response is often to choose the person with the leadership style you've seen many times before, and thus the person who uses unfamiliar, equally effective techniques doesn't get a shot.

You sure as hell shouldn't hire me because I'm female. You should hire me because the set of techniques I employ to do my job are effective, even though they might be less familiar to you. Every tech lead has a different style, and that style has been tailored to that individual. Measure the outcome, not arbitrary characteristics that contribute to the outcome.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#830

Post by [deleted] »

belorn wrote: post #805
slackingoff2017 wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You imply bias in the the hiring process is what is causing the gender imbalance in tech. Indicators such university enrollment in CS programs show that this is unlikely to be the case. If the author is wrong, that there definitely isn't some inherit genetic behavioral bias influencing job choice, than the bias is happening before students finish highschool. I'm a proponent for an "early bias" theory because of far l…

Does "early bias" theory include the leaky pipe line model? Ie: University students that fail a exam will switch program at a higher rate if their gender is a minority. In polls, they are also more likely to question their decision in career choice and have more self doubt about their ability to finish the program. The data that I have seen on this is that it is gender neutral, ie that the doubt caused by being a loc…

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