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GitHub is undergoing a full-blown overhaul as execs and employees depart

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Re: GitHub is undergoing a full-blown overhaul as execs and employees depart

#821

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if somebody self identifies as trans-racial. All jokes aside, some white people grow up dirt poor in predominantly black neighborhoods and identify more with black Anerican culture then their own skin color. Do they get better access to schools, scholarships, government jobs, funding for small businesses? Etc... What about the black kid who grew up in the suburbs with a stable family and all whote friends. Should…

The problem is that white kid could dress up in a suit and tie, go into an interview, and be totally free of racial judgment (also dropping any obvious mannerisms). A black man can do that, including dropping any mannerisms, but they will still be black.

This is not true, if the person doing the interview is also black. Or are you saying a black interviewer would also be racist against another black person in a suit and a tie? The fact is that race is matter of in-group, out-group thinking, and mentioning it exacerbates the problem because we are persisting the group-think. It's true the problem won't go away if we ignore it, but we should identify behavior and hunt down people who are racist, regardless of their race, and without mentioning their race so as to not keep persisting the grouping problem.

Re: GitHub is undergoing a full-blown overhaul as execs and employees depart

#822
post #552
post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not talking or thinking about race ... does absolutely nothing to help. But in the better future world we're trying to create where there is much less discrimination on the basis of ethnicity or sex or other body attributes, isn't that exactly what we'd be doing, not talking or thinking about race because it just isn't important to us? Isn't not talking or thinking about race exactly what we should be doing, as muc…

Everyone is biased[1], even toward groups they themselves belong to. It's impossible not to think about it. Biases are hard-wired into humans. To come anywhere near social equality, you have to recognize your own biases and actively ignore them. 1. http://www.boston.com/news/science/blogs/science-in-mind/201...

It's true there's a case for having people interact with many cultures and races, but forcing it can be a problem because you will only persist the segregation because you will have to continue to divide people in order to treat some of them in a special way to attempt a fix.

The initial problem is seeing the world as if people are different, and then identifying yourself as part of a group, and then seeing people outside of that group as "others". This is even worse when the categories are inaccurate, and are actually not races, but rather sub-cultures.

We shouldn't be promoting these inaccurate categories. Many "white" people are actually "black", and many "black" people "white". It just so happens that American culture has incorrectly correlated certain physical traits as markers for these sub-cultures, and now in an attempt to fix inequality we have persisted this mistake into government forms and professional business in the name of fixing the inequality, but we're simply promoting this mis-categorization and actually persisting the segregation into the future. There are definitely ways to address racist people and the damage they're causing without using these incorrect labels.

Re: GitHub is undergoing a full-blown overhaul as execs and employees depart

#823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always been profoundly confused by people/groups who choose to fight racism with racism. I'm not quite sure that's the best corrective path for this problem. But everyone lets it slide, at least here in the US. Are we just scared?

Personally, it's because it's not worth my time. Why should I have any sort of dialogue with such people when it's not going to be productive and will provoke a massive amount of vitriol? At best, it's unproductive, and at worst it's career-ruining. I think that most people think the same way, and as a result there are absolutely no consequences when the activists go from "challenging" to "outright hateful."

This is one reason I am inspired by reading about Nelson Mandela. He fought for both equality and forgiveness of his former oppressors. Once apartheid ended in South Africa he fought against the desire from many of the former oppressed to extract revenge. An early example:

"During my lifetime I have dedicated myself to this struggle of the African people. I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die." ~ Nelson Mandela [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_Prepared_to_Die]

IMHO, this position is more philosophically consistent than what many circles in American academia espouse. As I recall, Mr Mandela had to fight a lot of over-zealous activists in his own party who wanted to implement punishment or retribution to the white apartheid supporters. Though it cost him greatly in terms of discontent and difficulty but stands to me as an example. But it's been widely acclaimed after the fact.

Re: GitHub is undergoing a full-blown overhaul as execs and employees depart

#824

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't recall hearing that much in the context of Eich, but it certainly is a common go-to argument more recently among those who want to see people punished for having incorrect political views. It came up a lot when Strangeloop kicked out Curtis Yarvin, for example.

I said it back then and I'll say it here: There's a difference between "having a political view" (thinking that non-heterosexual marriages are icky) and taking positive action to prevent others from having equal rights (donating money to a lobbying/social engineering group) One is a thought, the other is an action. Punishing people for unknowable bad thoughts is an Orwellian nightmare. Punishing people for visible ba…

So people are allowed to have unpopular opinions as long as they don't, you know, tell anyone else about them or anything? Sorry, but that's unacceptable.

Re: GitHub is undergoing a full-blown overhaul as execs and employees depart

#825
post #744

The current dominant themes in certain feminism & diversity cliques in our community are openly hostile towards me. I'm a male. I'm white. I'm middle class. I'm heterosexual. I'm also a leader. I'm a parent of two daughters. My mother had to fight sexism issues in her career. I am supportive of inclusion & diversity. I am trying to raise my girls to be empowered, confident & curious. But the dominant themes in curren…

This is just misguided, plain and simple. I am white, male, heterosexual, and from a middle class family, and I absolutely know that my background gives me privilege. It doesn't matter if I earned it or not; I had and still have an advantage over other classes of people, and that is where the hostility is directed. Instead of taking it personally, use this advantage to eliminate as much privilege as possible. Don't s…

It is not the underrepresented that are bigots.

It's the ones who say that certain people must shut up because $GENDER or $RACE who are bigots.

I don't think this describes the majority of reasonable people defending diversity.

Re: GitHub is undergoing a full-blown overhaul as execs and employees depart

#826
post #379

I would expect more from a tech company that is supposed to be by programmers for programmers. Programmers are abstract thinkers, and it's disgusting to see them lower themselves and adopt the semantics and memes of obvious cultural constructs like race. What does it even mean to be "white"? Who exactly are they talking about and what is it about this group of people that is so bad? There's no need to bring in this g…

I think we can both acknowledge race, which often goes hand-in-hand with different cultures, and treat people as individual human beings. You can make all sorts of statistical inferences based on race, but they're not really useful when you're dealing with individual people. There's so much individual variation, that a judgment based on race is silly. Let's treat people as individuals, not as faceless members of some…

This definitely, in addition to the fact that, at least in the U.S., we incorrectly correlate certain physical traits as markers for a certain sub-culture. This is why it's an inaccurate categorization, and by continuously bringing it up in professional settings in the name of "fixing the problem", we're simply persisting the mistake that allows racists to have a framework to continue causing problems.

Re: GitHub is undergoing a full-blown overhaul as execs and employees depart

#827
post #379

I would expect more from a tech company that is supposed to be by programmers for programmers. Programmers are abstract thinkers, and it's disgusting to see them lower themselves and adopt the semantics and memes of obvious cultural constructs like race. What does it even mean to be "white"? Who exactly are they talking about and what is it about this group of people that is so bad? There's no need to bring in this g…

The race aspect is basically a footnote in the article regarding the exodus (the complaints largely center around a change in leadership and the company's hierarchical structure). Yet a comment about the race aspects is the top comment here. Your complaints have already been addressed many many times in academic literature and popular media. But I have to say, there is something amazing about reading someone comment…

It was a bullet point in the company's slide presentation that "white women" were the problem. That's not just a minor detail, and I would be outraged if it were my company, even though I'm not white or female.

Re: GitHub is undergoing a full-blown overhaul as execs and employees depart

#828
post #684
post #379

I would expect more from a tech company that is supposed to be by programmers for programmers. Programmers are abstract thinkers, and it's disgusting to see them lower themselves and adopt the semantics and memes of obvious cultural constructs like race. What does it even mean to be "white"? Who exactly are they talking about and what is it about this group of people that is so bad? There's no need to bring in this g…

No thanks. I'll talk about race the same way I talk about eye color. I'll talk about culture the same way I talk about TV preferences. Without hysteria. Fuck racists. Fuck spineless "don't you dare mention race" bullshit. Both are equally cowardly.

The moment you mention race, you are fighting the racist's battle. Instead if you avoid it, you are side-stepping and leaving the racists on their own ground, where they are just insane and/or ignorant people. History gave us inaccurate representations of people, and racists use these to spew their hatred. Why promote the tool and framework for racists to continue using?

Re: GitHub is undergoing a full-blown overhaul as execs and employees depart

#829

All "diversity" programs, along with other legalisms like "minority" status, "historically disprivileged groups", etc. are entirely about anti-white racism and dispossession. They have no moral standing and no logical consistency, and they don't pretend to, nor do they even need to. It's utilitarian and provides benefits to a specific group at the expense of another. I'm happy GitHub is getting to experience the runa…

You don't believe any actions should be taken to try and unwind the lingering effects of chattel slavery and jim crow?

Do you think actions should be taken? If so, what actions?

Re: GitHub is undergoing a full-blown overhaul as execs and employees depart

#830
post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> GitHub's pricing model makes NO sense for established companies with lots of projects Totally agree with this assessment. When we were with Github, we actually ended up on a custom plan, negotiated with them directly, because we had too many projects to fit within their normal pricing structure. We eventually moved to Bitbucket two or three years ago and it's far more cost-effective for us. At this point we have 50…

What do you do with that many different projects? Genuinely curious.

Agency work, so just repositories for all the various websites, web apps, mobile apps, etc., that we build and have built over the years.
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