Live data from Hacker News

Magnifica Humanitas

vatican.va

811–820 of 1001 posts

Re: Magnifica Humanitas

#811

I'm curious if there has ever been an instance where people have been able to "tame" a technology to consider a broader, societal good, or if we've always just been at the whims of how any particular tech naturally concentrates or dissipates power. For example, if you look at the boom of the middle classes in the mid 20th century, this appears to me largely a consequence of the fact that industrial technology at the…

Electricity. Eventually, it was everywhere, used by everybody, and a background to society. Electric utilities did not end up ruling the world.

Although there is not necessarily a cognate from the past to accurately describe what AI becomes in the future, I wonder if electric companies were once thought to have "better" electricity than others, like how AI companies have proprietary algorithms which are all basically very similar.

We may arrive at a point where standardized AI is a commodity, and since it was developed using reams of public data, proprietary rights become severely limited. (Personally, this is beyond my current level of optimism in law, ethics and humanity.)

Re: Magnifica Humanitas

#812

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's been plenty of examples of workers seizing the means of production and establishing sustained non-capitalist organization (State or otherwise). We have any number of strategies to choose from: The PRC, Soviet Union, Syndicalized Spain (my favorite, seems the least likely to lead to police state), Vietnam, Cuba. The question thus isn't "how," but more specifically a couple other questions: "How do we prevent c…

Can someone explain what it even means to seize the means of production? Like if the means of production is land, and you are seizing land, sure that makes sense to me. But most goods are not made by land alone but by machines and factories and transport systems and etc. If you seize those as preexisting entities, what happens after you seize them? If you as a group can operate and expand those things, can’t you just…

If a landlord owns 500 homes and tenants pay off the mortgage, maintain the place, and generate the income stream, who is really taking from whom?

"Seizing" kind of sounds like theft. If McDonald's employees at one shop in Pasadena Texas suddenly stopped sending money up the chain, isn't that theft of that particular McDonald's shop? I say no, because the theft has already occurred, but legally: faceless profiteers at wherever McDonald's is headquartered stole the land from the locals in Pasadena for the purpose of generating profits for people in NYC. Their labor and the surplus value of same is stolen to actualize and maintain those profits.

"But McDonald's provided the equipment, training, advertising!" Yes, and long after the value of that equipment, training, and advertising is "paid off" (the given franchise has achieved profitability), the headquarters will continue to steal surplus value from the local workers. Indefinitely.

Why don't Pasadena McDonald's employees just build/buy their own equipment, start their own burger shop, call it something other than McDonald's? Because society is designed to serve the needs of McDonald's shareholders, not Pasadena minimum wage McDonald's employees: they could never get together the kind of capital needed to do so. Get a loan, investment? Sure, now they're in the same situation: someone is extracting the surplus profit off their labor, and nobody's gonna go for a loan to a bunch of minimum wage Pasadenans without a very juicy potential profit margin.

Capitalism is structured around exclusion: capital, land, patents, credit, licenses, distribution networks, rent, and monopoly advantages are already controlled. The era of "just compete with McDonald's" is long dead.

> Is seizing the means of production not equivalent to starting a company and stealing things others have built for the company to get started with?

So to answer your original question, "seizing the means of production" doesn't mean "starting a company." Within the context of capitalism, you could do what I did and start a co-op, which is a worker-owned entity where profits are distributed equally, so no theft of surplus. However that's not a sustainable solution to the overall problem of capitalism because we will never have the kind of capital accumulation that allows much larger companies to start influencing governments or engage in lawfare. If AKQA decides to eat us, there's not much we can do to stop them. Also all institutions of capitalism are against us: nobody wants to give us loans or an investment, it's stupid hard to navigate bureaucracy, the very formation mechanisms are so much more complicated than when a business is a simple minority shareholder owned corp. On the other hand our members make way more than local rates (3x, sometimes more) and are much happier than AKQA folks, and our client outcomes are phenomenal, so idk, everyone should convert their business to a co-op.

Sorry, rambling. Seizing the means of production doesn't mean taking people's toothbrushes, it means abolishing the right of an owner class to control the productive infrastructure everyone depends on and extract profit from other people’s labor simply because their name is on a piece of paper.

Means of production: land, factories, warehouses, tools, machines, logistics networks, software infrastructure, housing, energy systems, water systems.

Seizing means transferring control away of the means of production from distant profiteers, to the people who actually build, operate, and maintain those means.

Incidentally this shifts priorities away from pure profit and usually to things that are better for the workers and users: compare the incentives and impacts of Linux versus those of Microsoft.

Seizing can look like: occupying, collectivizing, expropriating, squatting, unionizing, converting firms to worker control, building commons, abolishing intellectual property, refusing rent, creating parallel distribution systems, and making capitalist ownership unenforceable or irrelevant.

Re: Magnifica Humanitas

#813
post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fear I have committed the sin (I mean that word, here) of commenting before reading the entire article. Often it is the comments that set the tone of interpretation and communication more than the article itself, because people read the comments, not the article. To somewhat mitigate that, here are items that are striking me as I read more. (I hope you'll forgive that this still directs the comment in the direction…

"It is, therefore, not enough to state simply that men and women have equal dignity and rights; it is necessary that this be reflected in concrete decisions, such as in laws, access to employment, education, social and political responsibilities, and the way society listens to and values women’s contributions. As long as this gap persists, we cannot say that society truly and fully recognizes that women have the same…

> So ... women should have the same dignity as men and should get the same access to "employment, education, social and political responsibilities". But of course they cannot be trusted with spiritual matters...

Nobody has said that. You are attacking a strawman. The actual teaching of the Catholic Church is that because Jesus was a man, and because priests act in the priestly role Jesus held, that priests must be men. Which you may still disagree with. Fair enough. But in that case argue against the actual teaching, not a strawman.

Re: Magnifica Humanitas

#814
post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is a bit stretched. Women had and have a principal role in catholicism, the fact that cannot be priest is not that important or seen as discrimination.

Oh my, I assume you are male? Just declaring the discrimination to be "not that important" is quite typical then (as it does not affect you) and well, my catholic aunt would disagree, but she is not important. May I ask, what the principal role of women is in catholocism, besides being good mothers?

Trying to argue against someone's point by bringing their identity into it is not a good argument. It is a cheap rhetorical trick that only obscures the truth, not helps to bring it out.

Re: Magnifica Humanitas

#815

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copying and pasting my reply elsewhere in the thread that summarizes my thoughts here as well: I don't have the mental power at this moment to write out my full thoughts on the subject so forgive my vague thoughts (an aside- withdrawing from SSRIs is an _unpleasant experience_) I think the problem I find with arguments that Capitalism is the best/least bad system tend to be that they start from a false premise, in my…

I believe capitalism is the least-bad system we've created so far. Perhaps there is a better one, but as I said elsewhere the failed experiment of communism isn't one we should keep attempting--the cost in human lives is far too high. But, to your other point, I think human greed is innate. I can't think of evidence that would suggest that greed is somehow cultural or learned. Boil the system down to the lowest commo…

> But, to your other point, I think human greed is innate. I can't think of evidence that would suggest that greed is somehow cultural or learned. Boil the system down to the lowest common denominator, you find greed. Scale it up: greed. No matter what you do, you cannot remove human greed systematically.

Historic evidence doesn't support this. It supports the idea that greedy people exist and sometimes succeed at accumulating power, and we often hear more about those people because systems are built to sustain and tell the legends of these people. It seems most people would rather be chill with each other, and the tendency to not rock the boat means the greedy people can grab more and more before people realize it's too late and the systems have been constructed to support these greedy people, and then people just try to get on with their lives best as they can, despite they themselves not being so greedy.

Humans though aren't inherently greedy, we're inherently communal and social. Our key evolutionary advantage is sociability - so much so that we're the only living thing on earth that has complex language. We need to say more than "lion nearby" to thrive. Greed doesn't work well in social contexts, lots of anthropological studies show that in societies across history and across the world, there's a near universal appreciation of generosity, selflessness, and self sacrifice, and a near universal distaste for selfishness, greed, and resource hoarding.

Check out David Graeber's "Dawn of Everything."

Re: Magnifica Humanitas

#816
post #723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electricity. Eventually, it was everywhere, used by everybody, and a background to society. Electric utilities did not end up ruling the world.

Nice example. I wonder though... it seems the tech behind electricity has no moat, broadly speaking, and so was commoditized. Whereas if one of the AI companies finds a proprietary breakthrough algorithm that won't be the case... at least until others catch up.

> it seems the tech behind electricity has no moat

Sure it does. You have to run a separate set of wires to each house to compete at the retail level. There have been regions which had two competing phone systems in the past, and there are areas which have two competing fiber systems now. But that's rare.

Re: Magnifica Humanitas

#817

There are a lot of great aspects of the pope's writing. The most important one probably being that a spiritual leader understands that there is a large technological and societal change on the horizon. I still quite often experience the well described phenomenon of talking to "normal people" (my family in Europe for example) that seem to think that AI is gonna be roughly as important as the electric car and is not go…

> But I think the Catholic church should start thinking about an answer to that.

Questions like these about the soul are not new. Religious philosophers have been thinking about them for hundreds of years.

Re: Magnifica Humanitas

#818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EVERY progressive needs to read this quote. It’s my biggest frustration with so many expressing progressive beliefs. I’ve lost count of the times a progressive expresses unwillingness to address problems at a smaller, local or personal level. Instead there is a demand to fix everything forever and at once at the highest levels, or do nothing at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism The world would likely be a better place if people of all political stripes could internalize this concept.

I think this is the best descriptor for the philosophy of the Abundance movement.

Re: Magnifica Humanitas

#819
post #754

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EVERY progressive needs to read this quote. It’s my biggest frustration with so many expressing progressive beliefs. I’ve lost count of the times a progressive expresses unwillingness to address problems at a smaller, local or personal level. Instead there is a demand to fix everything forever and at once at the highest levels, or do nothing at all.

The fact that you call them progressives hints at a more general frustration that I doubt has anything to do with the problem. There is nothing wrong with some people working on a regional or global fix while others work on a local one. The important thing is that they’re working for it.

Agree to disagree.

I don’t think “global” fixes ever work well. In practice throwing out everything and starting from scratch just makes the overall situation worse.

Sustainable, lasting progress happens incrementally.

Re: Magnifica Humanitas

#820
post #15

I have only skimmed it, will definitely read carefully as soon as I have time. I will say, as an atheist, that regarding technology the Vatican has some of the best takes of any institution/government I have ever seen.

Indeed. This paragraph shows something that most people really don't understand about AI. > 98. It is appropriate to preface this discussion with two considerations. First, any statement regarding AI risks becoming quickly outdated, given the remarkable pace at which these systems are developing. Second, all of us, including those who design them, possess only a limited understanding of their actual functioning. Inde…

> such as the internal representations and computational processes of these systems

We know the representation (weights) and the computational processes, but we don't know the "why" behind the convergence of the model to a particular structure within that framework

Post reply on HN