Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

electrek.co

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

811–820 of 1001 posts

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#811

Post by SPICLK2 »

a4isms wrote: post #42
grouchomarx wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think the timing of the Cybertruck starting deliveries roughly aligning with when Elon got heavily involved in politics That and also it's just a bad product. >That said, even though it's not to my taste, I do admire that they dared to do something different and took a big gamble on it. A pickup truck should just be max utility, especially if you're a manufacturer making your first one edit: agree there's a market…

> A pickup truck should just be max utility A working truck should be max utility. Around the core market of "working trucks," there are various wannabe truck products that do not have to be max utility. For example, a Subaru Brat or a Hyundai Santa Fe. Niche products compared to an F-150, but they had/have their fans. I personally can't stand the design, but the idea of an impractical "halo vehicle" that appeals to…

A modern F150 doesn't have "max utility". It's for site foremen and driving to Walmart.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#812

Post by potato3732842 »

ImprovedSilence wrote: post #663
kalenx wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when? I sincerely do not understand that point about snow. I've lived in Canada (not southern Ontario) for most of my life and everyone had (and still mostly has) FWD. 4x4 was only for people actually going off road... I don't get how this is now a "must".

it's a perceived must. when running "all season" tires year round the AWD inspires more confidence, and most people don't even know winter tires are a thing. Plus 4x4 only helps you start moving, but once you are, every car still only has 2 wheels to turn and 4 to stop, which are quite possibly more crucial in snow....

Snow tires don't really stand on their own merit unless you're constantly encountering the conditions the snow tire people use in the commercials to magnify the difference. The biggest reason to get snow tires is simply that then you can run a "pure" summer tire rather than an all season the rest of the year. The second biggest reason is dry road performance.

> AWD inspires more confidence

Stop and work backwards and ask yourself why that is rather than doing the Principal Skinner "no everyone else is wrong" routine. In practice, all seasons on an AWD car result in less slipping around than snow tires on a FWD car. Heck, if the difference where anywhere near close everyone rich enough to have a new car would probably have snow tires because the dealership or tire shop would be able to make that sale. The reason they can't is because in people's experience they're just not necessary.

Stupid internet circle jerks about stopping distance are not the pain point or performance bottleneck for the average user. The degree to which you can enter/exit a side street that has snow plowed in front of it, navigate a steep and poorly plowed driveway, park in an unplowed space, cross the slush between lanes on a main roads or highway, those are what "real users" care about and they're where AWD shines.

>but once you are, every car still only has 2 wheels to turn and 4 to stop, which are quite possibly more crucial in snow..

These trope needs to be taken out back and shot. Regardless of your tire type the amount of traction available in snow conditions is such that "not being stupid enough to come into a situation too hot" is the dominant factor in overall outcome in braking/turning situations. Snow tires are an incremental improvement, not a categorical one. And the difference between a wet road and a snowy one is very much a categorical one.

AWD is the right choice for the statistical average person or "casual user" who's snow experience is dominated by somewhat plowed, somewhat churned snow/slush roads and is already driving incredibly conservatively. If you're driving on a frozen lake all the time like in the tire commercials or live somewhere rural and drive on a ton of fresh snow, by all means get the snow tires. But most people aren't, in that category they're better served by some random crossover and not thinking about it. And if you are one of those people, then spend a little more and get something with studs for all the ice you're inevitably also encountering.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#813

Post by potato3732842 »

theshrike79 wrote: post #769
ImprovedSilence wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's a perceived must. when running "all season" tires year round the AWD inspires more confidence, and most people don't even know winter tires are a thing. Plus 4x4 only helps you start moving, but once you are, every car still only has 2 wheels to turn and 4 to stop, which are quite possibly more crucial in snow....

There was an anecdote that went something like "a 4x4 will just get you stuck worse then a 2wd" =) And, like you said, people think that an AWD car will stop faster. No, it'll just start moving faster, more traction doesn't make the brakes better or the road any less slippery. I owned a single 4WD car and it was super fun in the winter, but... when it's icy, you're most likely moving faster than you would be with a 2…

>And, like you said, people think that an AWD car will stop faster.

The only people I know who think this way are made up people who exist only in the minds of people seeking to validate a purchasing decision.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#814

Post by potato3732842 »

Auracle wrote: post #770
ImprovedSilence wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's a perceived must. when running "all season" tires year round the AWD inspires more confidence, and most people don't even know winter tires are a thing. Plus 4x4 only helps you start moving, but once you are, every car still only has 2 wheels to turn and 4 to stop, which are quite possibly more crucial in snow....

I would rather drive my rear wheel drive Camaro with its snow tires in a snowstorm than my the pickups I've borrowed over the years with their all season tires. It's quite the thing to remember that you need to drive like an old lady suddenly, even though you're in a big bad 4x4 pickup.

Surely that has nothing to do with the weight distribution and handling characteristics that result in the pickup and sports car having different ability to create traction out of whatever friction coeficient is available. /s

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#815

Post by wooger »

irishcoffee wrote: post #529
doublesocket wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never understood why the yanks don't like vans? Pickups are much less popular here in the UK, many more people use vans. A crew cab van with removable seats is infinitely more flexible than a pickup, other than long stuff which you chuck on a roof rack.

I wouldn't want to haul 3 yards of dirt/mulch in a van, or yard refuse. I wouldn't want to try and move a full-sized fridge in a van, or a queen bed box spring, neither will fit. I can't fit an ATV in a van, and I really don't want to put a dead deer in the back of a van after I hunt one. I wouldn't trust a van to haul 75 8x8x16 concrete bricks (over 2000 lbs/1100kg) because the suspension wasn't designed to do that,…

Yeah yeah, and 30-50 feral hogs could burst into your yard any moment.

For moving yards of mulch, topsoil or concrete blocks, almost anyone in my country, including people in construction would just have that delivered to the site, next day, by the seller.

No clue what van you're imagining, but weather alone makes many things much worse in an open bed. Moving a couch is a very common use of vans, people rent them specifically to move furniture all the time.

minivan != van.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#816

Post by wooger »

driverdan wrote: post #676
irishcoffee wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't want to haul 3 yards of dirt/mulch in a van, or yard refuse. I wouldn't want to try and move a full-sized fridge in a van, or a queen bed box spring, neither will fit. I can't fit an ATV in a van, and I really don't want to put a dead deer in the back of a van after I hunt one. I wouldn't trust a van to haul 75 8x8x16 concrete bricks (over 2000 lbs/1100kg) because the suspension wasn't designed to do that,…

Most of what you said is not true, at least for a full sized van. Sure you may not want to get it dirty inside, that makes sense. But they have more space than an 8' pickup bed. You can absolutely carry 2000lbs in a 1 ton van. An ATV or a couch will fit in one better than a pickup.

Yep, the bed of a van being 2-3 feet lower than a truck saves a lot of pointless effort, and having that load carried lower makes far more sense.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#817

Post by potato3732842 »

infecto wrote: post #635
nospice wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's basically one 4x4 van on the market in the US right now. So you're making a pretty bad generalization here. In the Bay Area, it's probably true that a van would work well, although I lived in a mixed-income neighborhood and all the construction guys had beater pickups. But if you live in a place with snow and unpaved residential roads, 4x4 is pretty much a must (and pickups can be also be used for plo…

I think your generalization is the bad one. Most trade jobs get better value out of vans compared to trucks. Vans offer awd, I am not sure a 4x4 offers much value. Most companies prefer vans over trucks. Much better economics.

Fullsize vans don't offer AWD at a reasonable price point.

Either AWD/4wd is necessary when you're going to other people's property because you can't guarantee any given property isn't an icy shithole and when you're a professional being paid by them to be there for a specific purpose the last thing you wanna do is slip out trying to do a 25-point turn on their stupid sloped driveway and put a tire in the landscaping.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#818

Post by potato3732842 »

phil21 wrote: post #773
nospice wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's basically one 4x4 van on the market in the US right now. So you're making a pretty bad generalization here. In the Bay Area, it's probably true that a van would work well, although I lived in a mixed-income neighborhood and all the construction guys had beater pickups. But if you live in a place with snow and unpaved residential roads, 4x4 is pretty much a must (and pickups can be also be used for plo…

AWD is a luxury outside of the most extreme of extreme locations. I grew up in Minnesota driving rear wheel drive cars to start. They worked fine even in the olden days where plows would take a couple days to clear the country backroads and even rock salt was applied sparingly due to the expense. Not a single one of my vehicles had winter tires - all seasons were perfectly serviceable. You’d get stuck once in a great…

>AWD is a luxury outside of the most extreme of extreme locations.

Only in the most strictly technical "I'm not touching you" sense.

Either AWD/4wd is necessary-ish when you're going to other people's property because you can't guarantee any given property isn't an icy shithole and when you're a professional being paid by them to be there for a specific purpose the last thing you wanna do is slip out trying to do a 25-point turn on their stupid sloped driveway and put a tire in the landscaping.

Even if it's some megacorp's facility that "should" be plowed and salted, it might not be when you show up at 6am on the dot to service something.

>I grew up in Minnesota driving rear wheel drive cars to start. They worked fine even in the olden days where plows would take a couple days to clear the country backroads and even rock salt was applied sparingly due to the expense.

>Not a single one of my vehicles had winter tires - all seasons were perfectly serviceable. You’d get stuck once in a great while but that’s what the bag of sand and shovel in the trunk were for.

I completely agree but the past isn't coming back. Those standards of performance are unfortunately no longer acceptable, especially in business settings.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#819

Post by wooger »

edgineer wrote: post #628
alexjplant wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A pickup truck should just be max utility, especially if you're a manufacturer making your first one The modern US pickup truck isn't built for utility. It's a $60,000 four-door lifted luxobarge with leather interior and a short bed. It signals (perceived) wealth while preserving working-class alignment. It can also be justified by way of having to pick up used furniture for TikTok refinish and flip projects or bim…

That's opinion/stereotype, and unsupported. From Rob Cockerham's experiment (2002): "I guessed that 98% of all truck beds are empty" "In 25 minutes I had counted 150 trucks, and 99 of them had been empty. This 66% empty ratio was much lower than I had expected. I hadn't realized that so many trucks were being so successfully utilized." "The results were similar: 39% of the trucks were hauling goods, and 61 of them we…

A vehicle thousands of pounds heavier, with much worse mpg, and almost by definition terrible aerodynamics, is no less efficient than a car with empty rear seats? Sure.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#820

Post by potato3732842 »

UltraSane wrote: post #627
mrexroad wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo. Sprinter vans, utility vans, or even minivans are far, far more useful for trades than modern pickups. Heck, my minivan was the goat for home renovations—it’d easily fit a dozen full 4x8 sheets of drywall/osb/ply/mdf/etc and I could still close the rear gate. I always got chuckles from guys awkwardly wrangling/securing sheets onto a pickup’s bed at the supply yard when I’d easily slide the sheets off the cart…

A minivan with the two rear seats removed can move so much stuff.

Yeah but the same exact geniuses in here screeching about "you don't need a truck" will judge you so hard when they see you in the home depot parking lot stacking the thing floor to ceiling with building materials.

Source: own minivan

Post reply on HN