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Why are there so many rationalist cults?

asteriskmag.com

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Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#811
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to start a group called "Mentally Healthy People". We use data, logical thinking, and informal peer review. If you disagree with us, our first question will be "what's wrong with mental health?"

But, to be frank, "Mentally Healthy People" fully acknowledge and accept their emotions, and indeed understand that emotions are the fundamental way that natural selection implements motivation. Calling yourself "rationalist" doesn't inherently mean that you think you're better than everyone else, or somehow infallible. To me it just means your specific approach to problem solving.

[deleted]

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#812

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also entirely subjugates the economic realities that we (at least currently) live in to the future health of the planet. I care a great deal about the Earth and our environment, but the more I've learned about stuff the more I've realized that anyone advocating for focusing on one without considering the impact on the other is primarily following a religion

> It also entirely subjugates the economic realities that we... To play devils advocate, you could be seen as trying to subjugate the worlds health to your own economic well-being, and far fewer people are concerned with your tax bracket than there are people on earth. In a pure democracy, I'm fairly certain the planets well being would be deemed more important than the economy of whatever nation you live in. > advoc…

> To play devils advocate, you could be seen as trying to subjugate the worlds health to your own economic well-being, and far fewer people are concerned with your tax bracket than there are people on earth.

Well, if they choose to see me as trying to subjugate the world's health to my own economic well-being (despite the fact that I advocate policies that would harm me personally in the name of climate sustainability), then we're already starting the discussion from bad faith (literally they are already assuming bad faith on my part). I'm at the point where I don't engage with bad faith arguments because they just end up in frustration on both sides. This whole modern attitude of "if you disagree with me then you must be evil" thing is (IMHO) utter poison to our culture and our democracy, and the current resident of the White House is a great example of where that leads.

> In a pure democracy, I'm fairly certain the planets well being would be deemed more important than the economy of whatever nation you live in.

Yeah, for about 3 days until people start getting hungry, or less extreme, until they start losing their jobs and their homes, or even longer term when they start to realize that they won't be able to retire and/or that they are leaving their kids a much worse situation than they themselves had (much worse than the current dichotomy between Boomers and Millenials/Zoomers). Ignoring or disregarding Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is a sure way to be surprised and rejected by the people. We know that even respectable people will often turn to violence (including cannabalism) when they get hungry or angry enough. We're not going to be able to save the planet if there's widespread violence.

> Maybe, but they could also just be doing the risk calculus a bit differently. If you are a many step thinker the long term fecundity of our species might feel more important than any level of short term financial motivation.

I think this actually pointed at our misunderstanding (I know you're playing devil's advocate so this isn't addressed to you personally, rather your current presentation :-) ). I'm not talking about short-term financial or even economic motivation. I'm looking medium to long term, the same scale that I think needs to be considered for the planet. Now that said, banning all fossil fuels tomorrow and causing sweeping global depression in the short-term is something I would radically oppose, because it would cause immense suffering and I don't believe it would make much of a dent in the climate long-term (as it would quickly be reversed under the realities of politics) and it would absolutely harm the lower income brackets to a much greater proportional extent than the upper income brackets who already have solar panels and often capable of being off-grid. Though, even they will still run out of food when the truck companies aren't able to re-stock local grocery store shelves...

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#813
post #612

This article is beautifully written, and it's full of proper original research. I'm sad that most comments so far are knee-jerk "lol rationalists" type responses. I haven't seen any comment yet that isn't already addressed in much more colour and nuance in the article itself.

The contrarian dynamic strikes again! https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... (I'm referring to how this comment, objecting to the other comments as unduly negative, has been upvoted to the top of the thread.) (p.s. this is not a criticism!)

Hahaah yeah true. If I had been commenting earlier I might’ve written “lol rationalists”

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#814

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The WHO didn't declare a global pandemic until March 11, 2020 [1]. That's a little slow and some rationalists were earlier than that. (Other people too.) After reading a warning from a rationalist blog, I posted a lot about COVID news to another forum and others there gave me credit for giving the heads-up that it was a Big Deal and not just another thing in the news. (Not sure it made all that much difference, thoug…

I worked at the British Medical Journal at the time. We got wind of COVID being a big thing in January. I spent January to March to get our new VPN into a fit state that the whole company could do their whole jobs from home. 23 March was lockdown and we were ready and had a very busy year. That COVID was going to be big was obvious to a lot of people and groups who were paying attention. We were a health-related org,…

I recall friends who worked for Google telling me that they instituted WFH for all employees from the start of March. I also remember a call with a co-worker in January/February who had a PhD in epidemiology (not a "rationalist" afaik); I couldn't believe what he was saying about the likelihood of a months-long lockdown in the West.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#815
post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you see that in the text? I am looking at the Hebrew script, and the text only reads that as Elisha went up a path, young lads left the city and mocked him by saying "get up baldy", and he turned to them and cursed them to be killed by two she bears. I don't think saying "get up baldy" to a guy walking up a hill constitutes bullying him into killing himself.

It's called context. The beginning of the chapter is Elijah (Elisha's master) being removed from Earth and going up (using the exact same Hebrew word) to Heaven. Considering that the thugs are clearly not pious people, "remove yourself from the world, like your master did" has only one viable interpretation. As for my choice of the word "thugs" ("mob" would be another good word), that is necessary to preserve the con…

Interesting! In the story itself, the word "go up" exists multiple times in that verse before the youths mock him, writing that Elisha goes up to Beit El and goes up the road, so I wouldn't go back to the beginning of the chapter to search for context that is found right there in those verses, but I like the connection you're making.

As for mob or thugs, the literal translation will be "little teenagers", so mob or thugs will be stretching it a bit; more likely that the Arabic contemporary use of "Shabab" for troublesome youth is the best translation. Religious scholars have been criticizing Elisha for generations after for his sending bears at babies, so I think it's safe to assume the story meant actual kids and not organized crime.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#816

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it just dumb luck that we're able to create knowledge about black holes, quarks, and lots of things in between which presumably had zero evolutionary benefit before a handful of generations ago?

Basically yes it is luck, in the sense that evolution is just randomness with a filter of death applied, so whatever brains we happen to have are just luck. The brains we did end up with are really bad at creating that sort of knowledge. Almost none of us can. But we’re good at communicating, coming up with simplified models of things, and seeing how ideas interact. We’re not universe-understanders, we’re behavior mo…

I wasn't referring the "luck" factor of evolution, which is of course always there. I was asking whether "luck" is the reason that the cognitive capabilities which presumably were selected for also came with cognitive capabilities that almost certainly were not selected for.

My guess is that it's not dumb luck, and that what we evolved is in fact general intelligence, and that this was an "easier" way to adapt to environmental pressure than to evolve a grab bag of specific (non-general) cognitive abilities. An implication of this claim would be that we are universe-understanders (or at least that we are biologically capable of that, given the right resources and culture).

In other words, it's roughly the same answer for the question "why do washing machines have Turing complete microcontrollers in them when they only need to do a very small number of computing tasks?" At scale, once you know how to implement general (i.e. Turing-complete and programmable) computers it tends to be simpler to use them than to create purpose-built computer hardware.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setting aside the reductio ad absurdum of genocide, this is an unfortunately common viewpoint. People really need to take into account the chances their child might wind up working on science or technology which reduces global CO2 emissions or even captures CO2. This reasoning can be applied to all sorts of naive "more people bad" arguments. I can't imagine where the world would be if Norman Borlaug's parents had dec…

Insane to call "more people bad" naive but then actually try and account for what would otherwise best be described as hope.

The point is that you can go "from more people bad" to "less people good" in just a few jumps, and that is not great.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#819
because the sacred simplicity problem, yet another label I had to coin due to necessity

for example, lambda calculus, it's too simple. to the point that it's real power is immediately unbelievable.

the simplest 'solution', is to make it "sacred", to infuse an aura of mystery and ineffability around the ideas. that way people will give it the proper respect proportional to the mathematical elegance without necessarily having to really grasp the details.

I'm reflecting on how, for example, lambda calculus is really easy to learn to do by rote. but this does not help in truly grasping the significance that even LLM can be computed by (an inhuman) amount of symbol substitutions on paper. and how it is easy to trivialize what this really entails (fleshing out all the entailment is difficult; it's easier to act as if they have been fleshed out and mimic the awe)

therefore, rationalist cults are the legacy, the latest leaf in the long succession of the simplest solution to the simplicity of the truly sacred mathematical ideas with which we can "know" (and nod to each other who also "know") what numbers fucking mean

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#820
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to start a group called "Mentally Healthy People". We use data, logical thinking, and informal peer review. If you disagree with us, our first question will be "what's wrong with mental health?"

But, to be frank, "Mentally Healthy People" fully acknowledge and accept their emotions, and indeed understand that emotions are the fundamental way that natural selection implements motivation. Calling yourself "rationalist" doesn't inherently mean that you think you're better than everyone else, or somehow infallible. To me it just means your specific approach to problem solving.

to be frank, "Mentally Healthy People" fully acknowledge and accept their emotions, and indeed understand that emotions are the fundamental way that natural selection implements motivation.

No, no, no! "Mentally Healthy People" is just the name of my group. It has nothing to do with emotions. How could you get confused like that?

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