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What if we made advertising illegal?

simone.org

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Re: What if we made advertising illegal?

#811
post #682

This idea isn't uncommon because it's beyond the Overton window, it's uncommon because it is silly and unworkable. * Total fantasy to think you wouldn't fall afoul of free speech, both legally (in the US) and morally. In fact, the author touts as a benefit that you'd stop populists being able to talk to their audience. This is destroying the village of liberal democracy in order to save it! * Absolutely zero thought…

> Total fantasy to think you wouldn't fall afoul of free speech, both legally (in the US) and morally.

Corporations don't have rights. Corporations don't have the right to free speech.

Yes, I'm aware of the SCOTUS opinion on this issue--I'm saying SCOTUS is wrong on this.

And no, granting corporations personhood isn't a viable approximation. We're discussing a case in this thread where granting corporations a right is drastically different from granting individuals rights.

> Absolutely zero thought has been given to how to police the boundaries. Giving a paid speech? Free gifts for influencers? Rewards for signing up a friend?

Your criticism is basically that OP didn't draft a full detailed legislation in a blog post. That's not how ideas get proposed on the internet and you know that.

> Products need marketing. You don't just magically know what to buy. Advertising fulfils an important social role. Yes, I know it can be annoying/intrusive/creepy. "In our information-saturated world, ads manipulate, but they don't inform" is an evidence-free assertion.

I agree that people don't magically know what to buy, but ads make that problem worse, not better. Ads cannot inform, because they don't come from an unbiased source and even in the rare cases where they tell the truth, they're leaving out important facts intentionally. You're basically saying, "People don't know what the truth is, so we need to let liars lie to them." The solution to lack of knowledge is truth, not lies.

In the absence of advertising, independent third party reviews such as those provided by Consumer Reports would actually fill the need for consumer information.

Re: What if we made advertising illegal?

#813

I hate ads. I hate them everywhere I see them, but if you want to start a business, and you can’t advertise, how do you possibly stand a chance against entrenched incumbents? Banning advertisements is regulatory capture taken to an extreme.

There can still be product catalogues, people will still shop in person or on online resellers. You can still start off with a limited time discount so people can try your product. None of these need advertisement, they are organic ways of getting the word out there.

Re: What if we made advertising illegal?

#814
post #804
post #758

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Products need marketing. You don't just magically know what to buy. A-Are you Don Draper by any chance? Seriously, though: you don't need marketing. What you need while searching for what product to buy is a technical specification of the product by which you can determine if the product suits your needs.

I'm not sure. I keep thinking about this, and the only conclusion I can come to is that businesses would still need to be able to advertise their own products in places that they own. For example, what if I want to buy a guitar? I'm shopping online. First, I need to pick a company to purchase my guitar from. How do I choose? Any sort of aggregated comparison of places to purchase from can be considered advertising, s…

> Any sort of aggregated comparison of places to purchase from can be considered advertising

This is where your confusion stems from, I think. Any sort of independent third-party review site is totally not advertising as far as I'm concerned. The problem with sites like Yelp is that they accept money from companies and are susceptible to astroturfing. But truly independent reviewers like Consumer Reports, are pretty clear not advertising.

> Now, on that site, is this company allowed to advertise different brands that they carry to me? By definition of advertising, no - the whole purpose of showing me products is to make me purchase, which is the definition. So then do we reach a true communist state where there is only one option to purchase? If so, can I still not see it because it's considered advertising? Okay, fine, I need to be able to see at least one guitar, we can concede that point.

This seems like handwringing about the most extreme possible form of legislation possible which nobody is proposing. I am not sure what definition of "advertising" you're thinking of, but having a list of what products your store sells isn't advertising by any reasonable definition.

Re: What if we made advertising illegal?

#816
post #682

This idea isn't uncommon because it's beyond the Overton window, it's uncommon because it is silly and unworkable. * Total fantasy to think you wouldn't fall afoul of free speech, both legally (in the US) and morally. In fact, the author touts as a benefit that you'd stop populists being able to talk to their audience. This is destroying the village of liberal democracy in order to save it! * Absolutely zero thought…

> Total fantasy to think you wouldn't fall afoul of free speech, both legally (in the US) and morally. Corporations don't have rights. Corporations don't have the right to free speech. Yes, I'm aware of the SCOTUS opinion on this issue--I'm saying SCOTUS is wrong on this. And no, granting corporations personhood isn't a viable approximation. We're discussing a case in this thread where granting corporations a right i…

Also, free speech isn't the same as free amplification of speech.

Re: What if we made advertising illegal?

#817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's open for discussion. Free speech is not limitless. You can wax poetically all you want about endowment by the creator, but try saying racial slurs on daytime TV and see how long that lasts. Advertisement is just another form of speech that can be limited.

"Congress shall MAKE NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." What part of that are you confused by? You are making a brash claim that the writ of the state includes the ability to censor speech. Your right…

Free speech has exceptions that include commercial speech and advertising, especially false advertising. So are you talking about US free speech laws, or about some other kind of free speech?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...

US law is not a natural right and does not grant the right to say anything. You can claim and exercise a perceived natural right to say anything, you just won’t be protected from punishment under US law for saying certain things.

Re: What if we made advertising illegal?

#818
Maybe a good initial step would be to tighten up false advertising laws:

Make it illegal to make statements that are not objectively true. E.g. you can't say that your product is "the best", you can only say specifically how it is better.

Put restrictions on advertising an idealized version of a product and then selling a lesser version. E.g. the difference between what fast food ads show versus what you get. I'm sure it would be difficult to completely fix that since it's so subjective, but we could probably get incremental improvements.

Re: What if we made advertising illegal?

#819
post #804
post #758

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Products need marketing. You don't just magically know what to buy. A-Are you Don Draper by any chance? Seriously, though: you don't need marketing. What you need while searching for what product to buy is a technical specification of the product by which you can determine if the product suits your needs.

I'm not sure. I keep thinking about this, and the only conclusion I can come to is that businesses would still need to be able to advertise their own products in places that they own. For example, what if I want to buy a guitar? I'm shopping online. First, I need to pick a company to purchase my guitar from. How do I choose? Any sort of aggregated comparison of places to purchase from can be considered advertising, s…

the difference here is if you search or seek something, i.e. explicitly consent to viewing advertisements for guitar in your active browsing session vs them being pushed to you without your consent the next day on your phone.

I'm not against monetizing advertisement for the 1st use case either.

Re: What if we made advertising illegal?

#820

Maybe a good initial step would be to tighten up false advertising laws: Make it illegal to make statements that are not objectively true. E.g. you can't say that your product is "the best", you can only say specifically how it is better. Put restrictions on advertising an idealized version of a product and then selling a lesser version. E.g. the difference between what fast food ads show versus what you get. I'm sur…

They already do that. Is always in TINY print or they use weasel words that are meaningless in common use, but defendable in court.

Improved health is a good one. It doesn't really mean anything.

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