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String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

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Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#811

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No one chooses to be anything. There is no free will and there never has been.

> No one chooses to be anything. There is no free will and there never has been. I think this is a very confused remark. You are mixing up the existence of choices with the philosophical question of the nature and existence of "free will". I had a real choice as to what to eat for breakfast this morning. There were several live options and I chose one of them and discarded the others. Was that choice of mine "free"?…

Sapolsky's book Determined is really the counter to your post.

I don't want to believe what that book says but it is quite a strong argument. It is really too sweeping and complicated to discuss in this format though. It really would need an entire counter book to it that dissects each point.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#813

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I mean it’s sort of a no true Scotsmen thing, but I’ll say it anyway: Trump is not a conservative.

Yes, but conservatives are Trumpers.

Some are. Some aren't. Some are pragmatic about a choice with only two real options.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#814
post #14
post #11

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We really need a phrase for "appears to behave normally in regular matters and is capable of independent living, does not match other DSM symptoms, but believes insane things". It's a very common component in mass shootings.

> "appears to behave normally in regular matters and is capable of independent living, does not match other DSM symptoms, but believes insane things" I have met a lot of people in my life who fit this criteria. Not one of them has gone on to become a mass shooter. Saying we need a phrase to label people like this in order to _stop mass killings_ sounds crazy to me. If you really had the option to explore the psyche o…

> Isn't it a meme at this point how people win the nobel prize in one field, and then say some nutty nonsense about a completely different field?

There is a name for that; it's the "Nobel Disease" or "Nobel Syndrome". Sometimes people swap "Nobel" and "MD".

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#815
post #718

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I think it goes both ways. I used to go out in drag in Halloween before things got so polarized. Many people thought I had a great costume but I'd always seem some microexpressions of disgust enough to know I was doing something that wasn't completely safe. I was very inclined to think positively of transgender people ten years ago but my own experience with them on Mastodon and in other places has led me to agree wi…

Hate toward trans predates mastodon tho. Where I live, it is very normal to make fun of trans and gays. It is simply accepted that they are disgusting. People who talked to me about trans being disgusting were definitely not reading mastodon nor any other trans bubble. Trans being killed for being trans and then local politician using the situation to push anti-gay legal agenda is a very real thing. I do not think it…

It's reductive to say that it's one or the other.

I can say personally my feeling thermometer went from maybe 75 to 15 as a result of being on Mastodon and other online forums in the last tow years. I like trans people as individuals but I hate the movement. It's not the only place where that kind of negativity leaks out.

For instance the men's rooms in my building are stuffed with menstrual products for "men who menstruate" with a preachy card that talks about it in a reductive, narrow minded frame the same as the worst conservative Christians. This is for the benefit of 0.6% of the population at best, maybe 3 or 4 people benefit from it, out of 8 men's rooms in that building it is probably less than one person per bathroom.

It seems to me that this sucks all the air out of the room to discuss anything else. Young men are struggling. Maybe you only see the survivors in higher ed, but the K12 system is not built with boys in mind, particularly if you are in a racial minority, see

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2023/04/boys-school-challenges-r...

Instead of messaging aimed at, say, 20% of people who are struggling we get this stridently minoritiarian discourse that leaves many people feeling unheard, erased, and resentful.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#816
post #700

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It’s pointless. They aren’t rational. Any argument you come up with that contradicts their personal desires will be successfully “reasoned” away by them because they want it to be. Your mistake was ever thinking they had a rational thought to begin with, they think they are infallible.

"Widespread robots that make their own decisions autonomously will probably be very bad for humans if they make decisions that aren't in our interest" isn't really that much of a stretch is it? If we were going slower maybe it would seem more theoretical. But there are multiple Manhattan-Project-level or (often, much) larger efforts ongoing to explicitly create software and robotic hardware that makes decisions and t…

None of those projects are even heading in the direction of "AGI". The state of AI today is something akin to what science fiction would have called an "oracle", a devise that can answer questions intelligently or seemingly-intelligently but otherwise isn't intelligent at all: it can't learn, has no agency, does nothing new. Even if that can be scaled up indefinitely, there's no reason to believe that it will ever become an AGI.

If any of this can make decisions in a way that a human can, then I would start to question what human decision-making really amounts to.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#817

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Hegel still has a really bad reputation regarding atrocities and his Philosophy of history. "History as the slaughter-bench" - and yet the aims of reason are accomplished." But there are also Hegel scholars (Walter Jaeschke for example) who simply consider these accusations to be uneducated and that he does not see the atrocities of history as reasonable, but on the contrary makes criticism possible in the first plac…

All of Hegel, and most of his descendants, are fashionable nonsense. All types of "Dialectics" are fake and don't exist. It's telling that the most common version of the term "Dialectics" that everyone thinks Hegel coined was actually coined by one of his (many butthurt) students, Fitche. Philosophy will continue to be bankrupt for as long as Hegel's stranglehold on Philosophy remains. Kill his thought, Kill "dialect…

So you’ve discarded a lot of modern , post modern and contemporary thinkers without offering some alternative or do you mean that there isn’t much to philosophy in general? I’m curious because I have also come to a similar conclusion but I have to admit that I have not read everyone that you’ve mentioned but I have read summaries and analysis.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#818
post #486
post #196

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Am I wrong? Read the quote again: "appears to behave normally in regular matters and is capable of independent living, does not match other DSM symptoms, but believes insane things". None of you think the major religions teach some insane things? Okay then.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_cognitive_imperat... “ Such ridicule typically will not occur after a religious conversion brings a previous non-conformist into the fold of the culture’s dominant religion.”

What point of mine is that replying to?

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#819
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I wrong? Read the quote again: "appears to behave normally in regular matters and is capable of independent living, does not match other DSM symptoms, but believes insane things". None of you think the major religions teach some insane things? Okay then.

Care to provide an example?

You’re disputing that major religions ever hold deeply implausible claims as an article of faith? Really?

I mean, if they didn’t, then they probably would be religions, just “stuff everyone believes or has reasoned discussions about”.

Spoiler: they can’t all be right.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#820
post #793

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> The community/offshoot I am part of is mostly liberal/left There isn't an official "rationalist" community. Some consider LessWrong to be the center, but there have always been different communities and offshoots. As far as I know, a lot of the famous rationalist figures haven't participated much in LessWrong for a long time now. The far right offshoot I was referring to is known as "TheMotte" or "The Motte". It wa…

We don't have great language or models for talking about this stuff. It's possible for there to be a person or group who are fine, but who attract or allow followers and fellow travellers who are not fine. Then it's possible for one person to look at that person or group and think they're fine, but for another person to look at them, see the followers, and think they're not fine. And sometimes it's hard to tell if th…

>there's an explicitly far left-wing message board that doesn't ban people for their politics; because all the more moderate (and moderate cosplaying as extreme) left-wing boards do, that board collects various libertarians, nationalists, groypers and whatnot who can't go anywhere else. Makes for an odd mix.

That actually sounds pretty fascinating. What board are you thinking of?

It's a common observation that any free speech place on the internet will disproportionately attract right-wing wackos. But arguably that says more about the left than the right. If your politics are sufficiently to the left, there are a lot of places on the internet that will cater really well to that, and delete/downvote non-conforming views pretty aggressively (thinking of reddit in particular). So arguably the bottleneck on having a true "free speech forum", where all perspectives are represented, is that people with left politics have more fun options, in the form of forums which are moderated aggressively to cater to their views.

I tried posting on TheMotte a few times, but I found it to basically be a right-wing circlejerk. It was actually a bit eye opening -- before that, part of me wondered whether the stifling conformity on reddit was intrinsic to its left politics. If a critical mass of left-wing posters had been present on TheMotte, I might have stuck around.

I think upvoting/downvoting systems really accelerate the tendency towards herd mentality. It becomes very obvious when you hold an unpopular minority view, and that's a strong motivator for people with minority views to leave.

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