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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

ft.com

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#811

Post by rakejake »

glenstein wrote: post #556
JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> OpenAI's results were hard earned after all DDOSing web sites and grabbing content without anyone's consent is not hard earned at all. They did spent billions on their thing, but nothing was earned as they could never do that legally.

I understand the temptation to go there, but I think it misses the point. I have no qualms at all with the idea that the sum total of intelligence distributed across the internet was siphoned away from creators and piped through an engine that now cynically seeks to replace them. Believe me, I will grab my pitchfork and march side by side with you. But let's keep the eye on the ball for a second. None of that changes…

Look at it this way. Even OpenAI uses their own models' output to train subsequent models. They do pay for a lot of manual annotations but also use a lot of machine generated data because it is cheaper and good enough, especially from the bigger models.

So say DS had simply published a paper outlining the RL technique they used, and one of Meta, Google or even OpenAI themselves had used it to train a new model, don't you think they'd have shouted off the rooftops about a new breakthrough? The fact that the provenance of the data is from a rival's model does not negate the value of the research IMHO.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#812

Post by Pedro_Ribeiro »

__loam wrote: post #785
golly_ned wrote: post #716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they're still a minnow 3K+ employees, $3B+ revenue, ... sure, not BigTech but hardly a minnow. A company that big can chew gum and walk at the same time.

$7-8b in costs so they're losing $5b

Does that include R&D?

If running ChatGPT costs $1B/y and they make $3B/y on it, tacking on the cost of R&D on top doesn't seem very fair.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#813

Post by cscurmudgeon »

leobg wrote: post #711

OpenAI is taking the position similar to that if you sell a cook book, people are not allowed to teach the recipes to their kids, or make better versions of them. That is absurd. Copyright law is designed to strike a balance between two issues. One the one hand, the creator’s personality that’s baked into the specific form of expression. And on the other hand, society’s interest in ideas being circulated, improved an…

OpenAI is taking the position similar to that if you sell a cook book, people are not allowed to copy the recipes into their own book and claim they did it all on their own.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#814

Post by olalonde »

If it's true, how is it problematic? It seems aligned with their mission:

> We will attempt to directly build safe and beneficial AGI, but will also consider our mission fulfilled if our work aids others to achieve this outcome.

> We will actively cooperate with other research and policy institutions; we seek to create a global community working together to address AGI’s global challenges.

https://openai.com/charter/

/s, we all know what their true mission is...

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#816

Post by cscurmudgeon »

zelphirkalt wrote: post #624
buyucu wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm willing to bet ''ban DeepSeek'' voices will start soon. Why compete, when you can just ban?

Actually asking for banning DeepSeek would be the ultimate admit of defeat by ClosedAI.

No need to ban DeepSeek, just ban Chinese companies from using US frontier models.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#817

Post by cscurmudgeon »

Freedom2 wrote: post #522
buyucu wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm willing to bet ''ban DeepSeek'' voices will start soon. Why compete, when you can just ban?

Competing is hard and expensive, whereas banning is for sure the faster way to make stock values go up and exec's total package as a result.

Banning worked for China all these decades.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#818

Post by [deleted] »

portaouflop wrote: post #724
bilekas wrote: post #95

> “It’s also extremely hard to rally a big talented research team to charge a new hill in the fog together,” he added. “This is the key to driving progress forward.” Well I think DeepSeek releasing it open source and on an MIT license will rally the big talent. The open sourcing of a new technology has always driven progress in the past. The last paragraph too is where OpenAi seems to be focusing their efforts.. > we…

TikTok is banned in the US?

[deleted]

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#819

Post by bagels »

portaouflop wrote: post #724
bilekas wrote: post #95

> “It’s also extremely hard to rally a big talented research team to charge a new hill in the fog together,” he added. “This is the key to driving progress forward.” Well I think DeepSeek releasing it open source and on an MIT license will rally the big talent. The open sourcing of a new technology has always driven progress in the past. The last paragraph too is where OpenAi seems to be focusing their efforts.. > we…

TikTok is banned in the US?

Yes, it was removed from the app stores, and briefly, from the web.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#820

Post by bagels »

SilverBirch wrote: post #92

I think OpenAI is in a really weak position here. There are essentially two positions you can be in: You can be the agile new startup that can break the rules and move fast. That's what OpenAI used to be. Or you can be the big incumbent who is going to use your enormous resources to crush your opposition. That's Google & Microsoft here. For Microsoft to say "We're going to tie you up in lawsuits about the way you tra…

Anyone who uses DeepSeek commercially is now opening the door to litigation from them as well.
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