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Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

cnn.com

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Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#811

Post by ceejayoz »

gruez wrote: post #763
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Treat it as the act of war that it is, and confiscate or sink the ship involved in it. If it can be done before it reaches a harbor, of course also arrest the crew. If it happens repeatedly, declare the passage of all Russian ships (or possibly starting with ships of the type involved in the incident, allowing other shipping and giving Russia a chance to stop abusing it) "prejudicial to the peace, good order or secur…

>Treat it as the act of war that it is, and confiscate or sink the ship involved in it. If it can be done before it reaches a harbor, of course also arrest the crew. The ships involved aren't warships. They're ostensibly civilian vessels. Also other people mention that accidental fiber cuts happen all the time. Are we going to drone strike Russian civilian ships on the off chance is malicious? >Russia understands and…

> The ships involved aren't warships.

That has hardly stopped people before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#812

Post by victorbjorklund »

coldtea wrote: post #774
dralley wrote: post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reflexive cynicism about the military isn't as warranted in 2024 as it might have been a decade ago. And it wasn't really warranted a decade ago either, when Russia was blowing up Czech ammunition depots, airliners full of Dutch people, conducting assassinations in the center of Berlin, and sending "little green men" to Ukraine. It could be an accident, sure, but suspicion of sabotage is not paranoia. And also, like,…

[flagged]

What do you mean with proxy war? Are you saying russia is a puppet and a proxy for Iran and North Korea who provide the weapons and even soldiers?

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#813

Post by gruez »

ceejayoz wrote: post #811
gruez wrote: post #763

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Treat it as the act of war that it is, and confiscate or sink the ship involved in it. If it can be done before it reaches a harbor, of course also arrest the crew. The ships involved aren't warships. They're ostensibly civilian vessels. Also other people mention that accidental fiber cuts happen all the time. Are we going to drone strike Russian civilian ships on the off chance is malicious? >Russia understands and…

> The ships involved aren't warships. That has hardly stopped people before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior

Is this supposed to be an argument in favor of sinking civilian ships? From the linked article:

>The sinking was a cause of embarrassment to France and President François Mitterrand. They initially denied responsibility, but two French agents were captured by New Zealand Police and charged with arson, conspiracy to commit arson, willful damage, and murder.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#814

Post by dragonwriter »

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #636
dotancohen wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Why do they seem valid? How long has NATO been on russia's border? This is an important question. Please try to answer it.

NATO has been on both Russia’s western (land) border and eastern (sea) border since it was founded in 1949.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#815

Post by oneshtein »

dh2022 wrote: post #758
oneshtein wrote: post #708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO cannot stop Russia in Ukraine, even with help of 1 million Ukrainian army. NATO have no enough tanks, shells, soldiers to stop 2 million army in few first weeks, even if Russians will just march with their AK-s in hands. The only thing that will stop Russia for sure is a nuclear strike. Planes are good for strikes, but ground must be captured and hold by soldiers.

None of the western air forces are involved. In the Iraq war most of the Iraqi casualties were due to air force, not ground forces (like Iraq' Highway of Death for example). If US Air Force ever gets involved in this conflict it will be a turkey shot.

F-16 are already in Ukraine. They fail to demonstrate great results, because of Russian air defense. Both RF and Ukraine can launch glide bombs at enemy.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#816

Post by gruez »

oneshtein wrote: post #801
gruez wrote: post #747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>in front of a married couple Is this supposed to imply the story is implausible because the couple wasn't in on the plot and would rat the third guy out? If so, all 3 are suspects and presumably are in on the plot, so this argument falls flat on its face.

Only one man is suspect, a married couple is not.

Says who? The DW article says otherwise.

>The two other suspects, a married couple who do not have warrants issued in their names, have denied knowing Z. and said that they were on vacation in Bulgaria when the attack took place.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#817

Post by Terr_ »

coldtea wrote: post #810
dralley wrote: post #783

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia and Russia alone is responsible for "kick-starting" this war. And providing Ukraine with aid so that they don't get steamrolled is not morally wrong. Nor is refusing to do so so that Russia can more quickly get around to torturing and repressing the population a moral right.

[flagged]

> Yeah, it's not like a line in the sand, admitted as such by both sides, was broken, one with explicit promises that it wouldn't be.

Ah, your oddly-vague wording must of course be referring to how Russia explicitly promised to respect Ukraine's borders [0], a line they are violently crossing as we speak. First with an undeclared guerrilla-war and annexation, and more-recently with a massive "surprise" invasion--after spending several weeks of lying about their buildup and pretending that other countries were just trying to make them look bad.

If you are sarcastically suggesting something else... Well, go ahead, share the evidence for whatever-it-is, the kind of documentary evidence which countries ensure is always abundant for any remotely important international promise. (That is in contrast to self-serving lies from the Kremlin, which rely heavily on refusing to explain.)

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#818

Post by loandbehold »

dralley wrote: post #783
coldtea wrote: post #774

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Russia and Russia alone is responsible for "kick-starting" this war. And providing Ukraine with aid so that they don't get steamrolled is not morally wrong. Nor is refusing to do so so that Russia can more quickly get around to torturing and repressing the population a moral right.

Russia is responsible but not alone. This war could have been prevented by not pushing Ukraine into NATO. It's THE reason for the war.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#819

Post by twixfel »

autokad wrote: post #798
MasterYoda wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last time it happened, the Russian ship had also been seen unnaturally going back and forth over the cable where the damage occurred. These damages do not happen by themselves. Considering the current international situation and the fact that it happened in a short time in several places unnaturally in a limited region, the Baltic Sea, you have to be very naive if you do not see this as probable sabotage.

well, we did blow up their pipeline, so not like we didnt open the salvo for making international resources fair game

It was 50% funded by the west so it was much ours as theirs. I think it was rightly bombed by Ukraine anyway, not nato.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#820

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

gruez wrote: post #763
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Treat it as the act of war that it is, and confiscate or sink the ship involved in it. If it can be done before it reaches a harbor, of course also arrest the crew. If it happens repeatedly, declare the passage of all Russian ships (or possibly starting with ships of the type involved in the incident, allowing other shipping and giving Russia a chance to stop abusing it) "prejudicial to the peace, good order or secur…

>Treat it as the act of war that it is, and confiscate or sink the ship involved in it. If it can be done before it reaches a harbor, of course also arrest the crew. The ships involved aren't warships. They're ostensibly civilian vessels. Also other people mention that accidental fiber cuts happen all the time. Are we going to drone strike Russian civilian ships on the off chance is malicious? >Russia understands and…

The key word here is "ostentibly".

There seems to be consensus that this was not an accident (politicians have stated as such), and treating it accordingly would show Russia "no, you can't just pretend it was an accident and expect us to do nothing".

On the off chance it actually is an accident at some point - that's the downside (for Russia) of having pretend-accidents too many times.

The alternative is ignoring it "because we can't be sure" until we get to ignore the "little green men" that totally aren't Russian when they come across the border...

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