US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash • Hacker News Board

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#811

Post by pessimizer » Sun, Oct 20, 2024, 5:01 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #590

jabroni_salad wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Negligence is negligence but people tend to view vehicle collisions as "accidents", as in random occurrences dealt by the hand of fate completely outside of anyone's control. As such, there is a chronic failure to charge motorists with negligence, even when they have killed someone. If you end up in court, just ask for a jury and you'll be okay. I'm pretty sure this guy didnt even go to court, sounds like it got pros…

That sounds like the justice system living up to its ideals. If the 12 jurors know they would have done the same in your situation, as would their family and friends, then they can't in good conscience convict you for negligence.

It sounds like the kind of narcissism that perverts justice. People understand things they could see themselves doing, don't understand things that they can't see themselves doing, and disregard the law entirely. It makes non-doctors and non-engineers incapable of judging doctors and engineers, rich people incapable of judging poor people, and poor people incapable of judging rich people.

It's just a variation of letting off the defendant that looks like your kid, or brutalizing someone whose victim looks like your kid, it's no ideal of justice.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#812

Post by zbentley » Sun, Oct 20, 2024, 5:01 PM UTC

yborg wrote: post #753

nh2 wrote: post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This video is great. It looks like Wayno really understood the problem. It explains concisely why it's a bad idea to roll our incremental progress, how difficult the problem really is, and why you should really throw all sensors you can at it. I also appreciate the "we don't know when it's going to be ready" attitude. It shows they have a better understanding of what their task actually is than anybody who claims "ne…

You don't get a $700B market cap by telling investors "We don't know."

Not sure how tongue-in-cheek that was, but I think your statement is the heart of the problem. Investment money chases confidence and moonshots rather than backing organizations that pitch a more pragmatic (read: asterisks and unknowns) approach.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#813

Post by y-c-o-m-b » Sun, Oct 20, 2024, 5:03 PM UTC

tverbeure wrote: post #784

rootusrootus wrote: post #518

I'm on my second free FSD trial, just started for me today. Gave it another shot, and it seems largely similar to the last free trial they gave. Fun party trick, surprisingly good, right up until it's not. A hallmark of AI everywhere, is how great it is and just how abruptly and catastrophically it fails occasionally. Please, if you're going to try it, keep both hands on the wheel and your foot ready for the brake. W…

I just gave it another try after my last failed attempt. ( https://tomverbeure.github.io/2024/05/20/Tesla-FSD-First-and... ) I still find it shockingly bad, especially in the way it reacts, or doesn’t, to the way things change around the car (think a car on the left in front of you who switches on indicators to merge in front of you) or the way it makes the most random lane changing decisions and changes it’s mind in…

> it makes the most random lane changing decisions and changes it’s mind in the middle of that maneuver.

This happened to me during my first month of trialing FSD last year and was a big contributing factor for me not subscribing. I did NOT appreciate the mess the vehicle made in this type of situation. If I saw another driver doing the same, I'd seriously question if they were intoxicated.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#814

Post by jjav » Sun, Oct 20, 2024, 5:06 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #800

deergomoo wrote: post #796

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case I hope they're prepared to work with local authorities to immediately update the map every time road layouts change, temporarily or permanently. Google Maps gets lane guidance wrong very often in my experience, so that doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

I kind of assumed that already happened. Does it not? Is anyone pushing for it? Honestly it seems like it ought to be federal law by now that municipalities need to notify a designated centralized service of all road/lane/sign/etc. changes in a standardized format, that all digital mapping providers can ingest from. Is this not a thing? If not, is anyone lobbying for it? Is there opposition?

> I kind of assumed that already happened.

Road layout can change daily, sometimes multiple times per day. Sometimes in a second, like when a tree falls on a lane and now you have to reroute on the oncoming lane for some distance, etc.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#815

Post by lopkeny12ko » Sun, Oct 20, 2024, 5:08 PM UTC

> NHTSA said it was opening the inquiry after four reports of crashes where FSD was engaged during reduced roadway visibility like sun glare, fog, or airborne dust. A pedestrian was killed in Rimrock, Arizona, in November 2023 after being struck by a 2021 Tesla Model Y, NHTSA said.

This is going to be another extremely biased investigation.

1. A 2021 Model Y is not on HW4.

2. FSD in November 2023 is not FSD 12.5, the current version. Any assessment of FSD on such outdated software is not going to be representative of the current experience.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#816

Post by cma » Sun, Oct 20, 2024, 5:10 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #807

tverbeure wrote: post #784

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just gave it another try after my last failed attempt. ( https://tomverbeure.github.io/2024/05/20/Tesla-FSD-First-and... ) I still find it shockingly bad, especially in the way it reacts, or doesn’t, to the way things change around the car (think a car on the left in front of you who switches on indicators to merge in front of you) or the way it makes the most random lane changing decisions and changes it’s mind in…

> (think a car on the left in front of you who switches on indicators to merge in front of you) That car is signaling an intention to merge into your lane once it is safe for them to do so . What does the Tesla do (or not do) in this case that's bad?

Defensive driving is to assume they might not check their blindspot, etc. And just generally ease off in this situation if they would merge in tight if they began merging now.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#817

Post by y-c-o-m-b » Sun, Oct 20, 2024, 5:11 PM UTC

Flameancer wrote: post #809

1f60c wrote: post #738

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK the owner's manual says you have to keep your hands on the wheel and be ready to take over at all times, but Elon Musk and co. love to pretend otherwise.

This part doesn’t seem to be common knowledge. I don’t own a Tesla but I have been a few. From my understanding the feature as always said it was in beta and that it still required that you have your hands on the wheel. I like the idea of FSD, but I think we should have a serious talk about how the safety implications of making this more broadly available and also compatibility with making a mesh network so FSD vehic…

I've wondered about the networked vehicle communication for a while. It doesn't even need to be FSD. I might be slightly wrong on this, but I would guess most cars going back at least a decade can have their software/firmware modified to do this if the manufacturers so choose. I imagine it would improve the reliability and reaction-times of FSD considerably.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#818

Post by matwood » Sun, Oct 20, 2024, 5:12 PM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #777

shadowfacts wrote: post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a random blog making some conjectures, Rick Hasen is a law professor who is an expert in this area and, moreover, he cites specifics statutes and DOJ information that's not all that ambiguous.

He gets basic facts wrong in his blog though. For instance the rewards are for referring people to sign a petition that says you support 1a and 2a. You need to be registered for your voice to count. He’s not paying them to register but rather to refer registered people to sign it. So it’s up to an individual to find registered voters to sign it so they can collect their $47 bounty per referred signee.

> He gets basic facts wrong in his blog though.

No, he doesn't. He references the $47 as 'murky legality'. What he's stating is clearly illegal is the $1M lottery also announced by Musk.

And Musk does what he wants regardless of lawyers. Remember when he tried to back out of buying Twitter...

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#819

Post by sashank_1509 » Sun, Oct 20, 2024, 5:12 PM UTC

lopkeny12ko wrote: post #815

> NHTSA said it was opening the inquiry after four reports of crashes where FSD was engaged during reduced roadway visibility like sun glare, fog, or airborne dust. A pedestrian was killed in Rimrock, Arizona, in November 2023 after being struck by a 2021 Tesla Model Y, NHTSA said. This is going to be another extremely biased investigation. 1. A 2021 Model Y is not on HW4. 2. FSD in November 2023 is not FSD 12.5, the…

HW4 is a ridiculous requirement, it’s only post 2023 and even then except Model Y, there’s no HW4.

FSD in Nov 2023 is not latest but it’s not that old, I guess it’s not in the 12 series which is much better but no need to not investigate this.

Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash

#820

Post by sashank_1509 » Sun, Oct 20, 2024, 5:15 PM UTC

TheCleric wrote: post #440

bdcravens wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The liability for killing someone can include prison time.

Good. If you write software that people rely on with their lives, and it fails, you should be held liable for that criminally.

Do we send Boeing engineers to jail when their plane crashes?

Intention matters when passing crime judgement. If a mother causes the death of her baby due to some poor decision (say feed her something contaminated), no one proposes or tries to jail the mother, because they know the intention was the opposite.