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Meta censors pro-Palestinian views on a global scale, report claims

theguardian.com

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Re: Meta censors pro-Palestinian views on a global scale, report claims

#811

Post by reissbaker »

ignoramous wrote: post #799
reissbaker wrote: post #784

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My statement is from 2023 and is the current state of affairs. Your source from 2021 does not include: 1. An actual statement 2. That was ever enacted FYI, what you are referring to is actually a proposal from Fatah to hold elections in 2021, and a promise from Hamas not to run. Hamas backed out of the agreement and ended up submitting candidates to run, despite briefly claiming they wouldn't, and according to Marwan…

> My statement is from 2023... GP started off with something from 2004! Glad we are making progress with timelines here, if nothing else. Speaking of 2023 statements, the ruling party in Israel democratically elected for 2 decades now, have made it abundantly clear that they'll continue to thwart any attempts at 2SS ( https://archive.is/34Sg0 ) because 'security of the only democracy in the Middle East is at stake'.…

That is not a statement from Hamas, it is the author editorializing minutes from a meeting. The Wikipedia article that I linked shows the actual list of candidates and parties, which include Hamas, as well as sources for them and opinion polls showing Hamas was likely going to win the election. These are just the facts. Feel free to look at the official candidate lists and opinion polls if you disagree. Hamas was running and the opinion piece you posted is incorrect — they were not going to sit out the election.

Here is the direct quote from Wikipedia, since you're claiming it doesn't say Hamas was running:

The March 31 midnight deadline for submissions of electoral lists saw 36 lists officially presented,[69] including:

Fatah, led by Mahmoud Aloul[70]

Freedom, headed by Nasser al-Qudwa and Fadwa Barghouti, the wife of Marwan Barghouti[71]

Hamas (running as "Jerusalem is Our Promise"), led by Khalil al-Hayya[70]

...

I am not sure why you keep arguing unsourced claims — to the point of claiming that Abbas did not cancel elections, when every source points out that he did, and Hamas themselves say he did and called it a coup by Fatah.

Posting random quotes from Netanyahu that do not reference the 2021 election does not back up your claim that Hamas was willing to sit out the election. I don't like Netanyahu either, but that doesn't mean that somehow Hamas wasn't trying to stay in power.

Re: Meta censors pro-Palestinian views on a global scale, report claims

#812

Post by ignoramous »

reissbaker wrote: post #811
ignoramous wrote: post #799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My statement is from 2023... GP started off with something from 2004! Glad we are making progress with timelines here, if nothing else. Speaking of 2023 statements, the ruling party in Israel democratically elected for 2 decades now, have made it abundantly clear that they'll continue to thwart any attempts at 2SS ( https://archive.is/34Sg0 ) because 'security of the only democracy in the Middle East is at stake'.…

That is not a statement from Hamas, it is the author editorializing minutes from a meeting. The Wikipedia article that I linked shows the actual list of candidates and parties, which include Hamas, as well as sources for them and opinion polls showing Hamas was likely going to win the election. These are just the facts. Feel free to look at the official candidate lists and opinion polls if you disagree. Hamas was run…

  Hamas (running as "Jerusalem is Our Promise"), led by Khalil al-Hayya[70]
Hamas was in the running in 2021 via proxy (may be because the Western governments labelled it a terrorist group?), driven by their political aspirations as opposed to their military ones: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20210324-hamas-is-building...

> I am not sure why you keep arguing unsourced claims — to the point of claiming that Abbas did not cancel elections

I never claim anything of the sort. Abu Mazen did cancel the elections.

> opinion polls showing Hamas was likely going to win the election

As before, actual Kahanists winning elections is a-okay... but Hamas or its proxies winning democratically scare the hell because... 'security'? The 972mag article specifically calls out that the cancellation of the elections by Abu Mazen as the catalyst for al-Qassam, Hamas' armed wing, to (perhaps foolishly) take matter into their own hands.

> That is not a quote from Hamas, it

What about the direct quotes by Likudniks calling for ethnic cleansing (https://twitter.com/MairavZ/status/1739364199367618871) or more repression? Why do direct quotes from Hamas matter when an official Emirati document points out Hamas were okay with PA leading a political solution towards 2SS (and it is PA that has nothing to show for it 5 years since then).

Just so it is clear, I think Hamas are better relegated to the dustbins of history. They hinder more than they help.

Re: Meta censors pro-Palestinian views on a global scale, report claims

#814

Post by ethanbond »

bsaul wrote: post #810
ethanbond wrote: post #805

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strong reasons for why people are so interested in this conflict? Here are a few reasons Americans seem to be so interested in it: 1. We’re paying for a decent chunk of it, both financially and in terms of international political support 2. It cross-cuts American society along very unique dimensions, creating ad-hoc coalitions between people who don’t normally collaborate very much (e.g. far right white supremacists…

i'm not sure if you're doing this on purpose or not but that's not what i asked. So let me ask again more precisely : Why would a feminist movement only protest for women killed by bombing and not the ones killed and raped 2 days before , in the same region, and would on the contrary ban other feminists that wanted to also protest against those atrocities ? You keep saying "we should ask them, there's probably a bett…

> 2. These protestors want a single, specific priority for the protest they organized

From several comments up. Seems like a sufficiently plausible explanation not to jump to as cynical and self-serving an explanation as “they think Israeli women deserve to be raped.”

And I’d also not be surprised to see them kick out men’s rights activists doing the same thing. It would be excessively cynical and self-serving to jump to “they think the men of Gaza deserve to be bombed,” too.

“They’re pro rape” is an appalling accusation to level at someone. Doing so with the “evidence” you’ve supplied calls into question your willingness to question your priors and find a real solution. So this will be my last comment on the subject as I think I’ve sufficiently made my point. Have a good holiday season!

Re: Meta censors pro-Palestinian views on a global scale, report claims

#815

Post by reissbaker »

ignoramous wrote: post #812
reissbaker wrote: post #811

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not a statement from Hamas, it is the author editorializing minutes from a meeting. The Wikipedia article that I linked shows the actual list of candidates and parties, which include Hamas, as well as sources for them and opinion polls showing Hamas was likely going to win the election. These are just the facts. Feel free to look at the official candidate lists and opinion polls if you disagree. Hamas was run…

Hamas (running as "Jerusalem is Our Promise"), led by Khalil al-Hayya[70] Hamas was in the running in 2021 via proxy (may be because the Western governments labelled it a terrorist group?), driven by their political aspirations as opposed to their military ones: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20210324-hamas-is-building... > I am not sure why you keep arguing unsourced claims — to the point of claiming that Abbas d…

Hamas was in the running in 2021 via proxy (may be because the Western governments labelled it a terrorist group?), driven by their political aspirations as opposed to their military ones: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20210324-hamas-is-building...

Literally nowhere does it say that Hamas was only running "via proxy" in the article you linked. Hamas was running in the election as "Jerusalem is our Promise," as noted by Wikipedia and every single major news outlet that covered the election at the time. Just as in the 2006 election (which they won), where they ran using the name "Change and Reform." [1] The name of the list is just how they market their campaign slogan to voters, it doesn't mean they're not running or that it's a "proxy" that is different than them — and it certainly does not mean they're sitting out the election which was your claim. And that is why every major news outlet reported Hamas running in 2021, just as they did in 2006, and why you are continually unable to find sources saying they didn't run and are posting random articles that don't back up your claims.

And again, bringing up random Likudniks does not refute the undeniable fact that Hamas did actually submit to run in the 2021 election, just as they did in 2006.

Why does an official Emirati document...

You have not linked to an official Emirati document. You have linked to an opinion piece editorializing unsourced Emirati minutes supposedly from a meeting between Fatah and Hamas, that supposedly show a proposal for Hamas not to run in elections — a proposal that in reality was never enacted and an election that Hamas did run in. There are a zillion sources that show Hamas did run in the election and you have been unable to show anything saying that they didn't, and keep posting random right-wing Israeli statements as if that somehow proves Hamas didn't run.

1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative...

Re: Meta censors pro-Palestinian views on a global scale, report claims

#816

Post by ignoramous »

reissbaker wrote: post #815
ignoramous wrote: post #812

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hamas (running as "Jerusalem is Our Promise"), led by Khalil al-Hayya[70] Hamas was in the running in 2021 via proxy (may be because the Western governments labelled it a terrorist group?), driven by their political aspirations as opposed to their military ones: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20210324-hamas-is-building... > I am not sure why you keep arguing unsourced claims — to the point of claiming that Abbas d…

Hamas was in the running in 2021 via proxy (may be because the Western governments labelled it a terrorist group?), driven by their political aspirations as opposed to their military ones: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20210324-hamas-is-building ... Literally nowhere does it say that Hamas was only running "via proxy" in the article you linked. Hamas was running in the election as "Jerusalem is our Promise," as n…

> and it certainly does not mean they're sitting out the election which was your claim.

That was 972mag's claim as a precondition for Hamas to enter PLO post elections (which didn't happen).

1. In 2014, per UAE, Hamas stepped aside to let PA reach a political solution on 1967 borders. PA had nothing to show for that.

2. In 2021, 35 parties alongside Hamas (via proxy or not) favoured elections in WB, E Jerusalem, and Gaza. PA called it off.

In both those cases, doubt it was all Abu Mazen on his own, without the backing of the Knesset.

> And again, bringing up random Likudniks does not refute...

Two things:

1. You seem to place emphasis on direct quotes from Hamas but dismiss direct quotes from Likudniks (that prove they're no supporters of 2SS, which is why they may have pushed Abu Mazen to prevent elections).

2. Random? That's the longest serving Israeli Prime Minister.

Anywho, it seems we both agree on what happened (sabotage of the peace process) just not what led to it (right-wing Israeli rulers).

Re: Meta censors pro-Palestinian views on a global scale, report claims

#817

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

tptacek wrote: post #807
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel launched what it said was a preemptive strike [0] against Egypt, destroying virtually the entire Egyptian air force on the ground. Lacking air cover, Egyptian ground forces in the Sinai peninsula retreated, but were destroyed by the Israeli air force on the roads. Not having a clear picture of what was going on [1], the Jordanians and Syrians entered the war on Egypt's side, only to suffer a similar fate as Eg…

I don't think it's very hotly debated at all. There seems to be a consensus that whether they were right to be so concerned or not, Israel's motives in preempting Egypt were about security, not territorial expansion. Before the war, Egypt administered Gaza but did not claim it (Palestinians needed something like passports to transit between Gaza and Egypt proper). Jordan was almost kicked out of the Arab League for a…

> I don't think it's very hotly debated at all. There seems to be a consensus that whether they were right to be so concerned or not, Israel's motives in preempting Egypt were about security, not territorial expansion.

The issue is actually hotly debated. To this day, former Egyptian generals say that they only placed a force in the Sinai in order to discourage the Israelis from attacking Syria, which the Egyptians thought the Israelis were doing. Additionally, the Israeli government itself does not seem to have viewed Egyptian forces in the Sinai as a serious threat. The Israelis planned and trained for their air operation against Egypt long in advance, which means they were considering a first strike for a long time.

At the very least, the simple story the Israelis like to tell ("We were attacked and defended ourselves") does not hold water.

> But the history here is complicated and it's important to get it right.

The Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories is not really that complicated. Fundamentally, Israel wants to keep East Jerusalem, the West Bank and, to a lesser extent, Gaza. As long as Israelis think they can hold onto those territories at an acceptable price, they will. The US, by giving Israel unconditional backing, has abetted the occupation.

Re: Meta censors pro-Palestinian views on a global scale, report claims

#819

Post by rayiner »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #786
rayiner wrote: post #762

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with the Palestinians as stateless people with no rights, is a de facto reality, and has been for 56 years now. Remind me, what was it that happened 56 years ago?

Israel launched what it said was a preemptive strike [0] against Egypt, destroying virtually the entire Egyptian air force on the ground. Lacking air cover, Egyptian ground forces in the Sinai peninsula retreated, but were destroyed by the Israeli air force on the roads. Not having a clear picture of what was going on [1], the Jordanians and Syrians entered the war on Egypt's side, only to suffer a similar fate as Eg…

> Israel launched what it said was a preemptive strike [0] against Egypt

So it was just a coincidence that Egypt had massed troops on the border, closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, and ejected UN security forces two weeks before that?

Re: Meta censors pro-Palestinian views on a global scale, report claims

#820

Post by [deleted] »

ChatGTP wrote: post #781
tmnvix wrote: post #746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hamas is a terrorist organization You seem to be making the mistake that many do and conflating Hamas with the Palestinian people. The article is not about posts in support of Hamas.

Good luck just "untangling" Hamas and the palestinians though.

[deleted]
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